M3 vs ISF and the S5

[ACZakka325i]

Originally Posted by ISFail

True, and 0-60 numbers usually have the not to the F as well. No replacement for displacement!



The fact is that a modded M3 couldn't pull on a stock IS-F.....regardless of who's driving it was from a roll, where driving prowess is all but thrown out.

In the end, the F is faster but the M kills it in the twisties! Same as the C63

who cares anyway......me want 997 turbo

You're mad if you think the Lexus is a better car than the BMW.

[amgthis]

My neighbor about 5 houses down has a black IS-F. It sounds amazing, but what I can't believe is how fast it shifts. I have never heard shifts so fast

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by ISFail

Did I say that? Plese read my post again sir........


if by better you mean faster? Better gas mileage? More reliable? More exclusive and less produced? Better brakes? Better transmission (one that actually doesn't stall the engine on hard braking)? A car built with a Yamaha engine (courtesy of their F1 team) by the legendary Yaguchi (of Toyota Supra MKIV fame) couldn't possibly be better than the almighty BMW E9x M3!

Faster - See my post above. You are dellusional and completely in denial, which is why you translated an M3 win in a race to an M3 loss. As far as facts are concerned, M3 is as quick or quicker in a straight line than the IS-F. All evidence is there to back it up in my post.

Once again:

1/4 mile time and speed:
Nissan GT-R: 11.6s @ 120.9 [(Edmunds)
Mercedes C63 AMG: 12.3s @ 116 mph (C&D)
Porsche 997S: 12.3s @ 114.8 mph (R&T)
BMW E92 M3: 12.5s @ 114.8 mph (R&T)
BMW E92 M3 M-DCT: 12.6 @ 113.2 mph (MT)
BMW E90 M3: 12.6 @ 113mph (C&D)
Lexus IS-F: 12.7s @ 114 mph (C&D)
Porsche 997S PDK: 12.7 @ 111,85mph (AMS [400m - 180kph])
BMW E90 M3: 12.7s @ 111.3mph (MT)
BMW M3 M-DCT: 12.7 @ 113 mph
Audi R8: 12.7 @ 111 mph (R&T)
Audi RS4: 12.8 @ 109 mph (R&T)
BMW E92 M3: 12.9 @ 111 mph (C&D)
Porsche 997S: 13.0 @ 113 mph (Automobile A)
Lexus IS-F: 13.0s @ 112 mph (MT)


Better Transmission - Reliable? Yes Better? No. Sorry, a car that loses close to 25% (only 333 wheel HP on the dyno runs) through the drivetrain cannot be called a better transmission. Apples to oranges with M-DCT. Lock-up torque converted tweaked LS460 transmission vs a dual clutch manual from the ground up. I doubt the M-DCT loses that much more than the 6 speed manual M3 through the drivetrain.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...art/index.html

M3 6 speed putting down 376 wheel HP

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2...usic.html#more

Could M3 be underrated?? Possibly.

Better brakes - Again your dellusions kick in. M3 consistently out-brakes the IS-F and runs more laps without suffering from fade.

Reliable - I will give you that.

gas mileage - Maybe. Prius is a great bet for fuel economy, you know.

Yamaha tuned engine - Stuffing a tweaked LS460 engine that runs out of steam after 5200 rpm is radically different from an engine that was built from the ground up to be a race engine (prototype raced in the E46 M3 GT-R, according to chief engineer) that wins "international engine of the year" awards and does not really get going until over 6000 rpm.

So yeah, aside from one or two areas, the almighty M is actually superior hence the benchmark in the class.

[amgthis]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Yamaha tuned engine - Stuffing a tweaked LS460 engine is radically different from an engine that was built from the ground up to be a race engine (prototype raced in the E46 M3 GT-R, according to chief engineer) that wins "international engine of the year" awards.

So yeah, aside from one or two areas, the almighty M is actually superior hence the benchmark in the class.

Wasn't the M3's engine the S85 V10 of the M5/M6 with two cylinders lopped off? (Although different displacements and Oil systems)

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by amgthis

Wasn't the M3's engine the S85 V10 of the M5/M6 with two cylinders lopped off? (Although different displacements and Oil systems)

Yeah, I have heard both.

The chief engineer actually stated in the 'M-the most powerful letter' video that they were racing the E90 4.0 Liter V8 prototype in the E46 M3 GT-R as early as 2002. You can actually see that video on youtube.

[footie]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Faster - See my post above. You are dellusional and completely in denial, which is why you translated an M3 win in a race to an M3 loss. As far as facts are concerned, M3 is as quick or quicker in a straight line than the IS-F.

This is about the third race between a IS-F and M3 that I have seen and though this M3 is meant to be tweaked which resulted in a very close race (by the way there was a honk of a horn), in the other races where each were stock the IS-F did appear to be a bit quicker. So my guess is that though it's really a driver's race as to which should win, based on the ease of driver's involvement I would say that the IS-F is the quicker or at the very least the easier to achieve the desired results.

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Better Transmission - Reliable? Yes Better? No. Sorry, a car that loses close to 25% (only 333 wheel HP on the dyno runs) through the drivetrain cannot be called a better transmission. Apples to oranges with M-DCT. Lock-up torque converted tweaked LS460 transmission vs a dual clutch manual from the ground up.

If you are saying that the M3 has a better transmission because according to dyno results it has less lose to the wheels then you are shooting yourself in the foot with this argument. What we see in this and other videos then is a car (according to you) with more power at the rear wheels and weighing less (M3) being beat by a heavier car with less true power (IS-F). Believe in dyno figures if you want but I think you would be a fool to do so.

Also being a M-DCT owner and someone who has owned other DCT transmission cars I can say that though the M3's version is good it have faults that detracted from the enjoyment and at times I wished I had as good a gearbox as the one in the IS-F or RS6, even though I know they are automatics.

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Better brakes - Again your dellusions kick in. M3 consistently out-brakes the IS-F and runs more laps without suffering from fade.

Reliable - I will give you that.

gas mileage - Maybe. Prius is a great bet for fuel economy, you know.

Don't know whether the IS-F brakes are that much better but the M3 brakes are far from the best on offer. Compared to Porsche they are not that good at all.

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

tuned engine - Stuffing a tweaked LS460 engine is radically different from an engine that was built from the ground up to be a race engine (prototype raced in the E46 M3 GT-R, according to chief engineer) that wins "international engine of the year" awards.

So yeah, aside from one or two areas, the almighty M is actually superior hence the benchmark in the class.

Don't either of you get drawn into a debate about who makes the best engine. Each are really good but take a different approach on how to get the performance, neither have anything remotely connected to F1 technology. Yes the S65 is an award winner but that doesn't mean it's the better engine, it just means that the people who voted preferred it more.

One area where we are all in agreement is that the M3 is better than all others in driver involvement and out right handling finesse and ability. But stop thinking that the M3 is somehow the best car ever in all departments because it is not. How good you rated it all depends on what you happen to look for from a car.

[footie]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Yeah, I have heard both.

The chief engineer actually stated in the 'M-the most powerful letter' video that they were racing the E90 4.0 Liter V8 prototype in the E46 M3 GT-R as early as 2002. You can actually see that video on youtube.

Big deal, VW have raced the 2.0TFSI engine in the 24hr Nurbergring race in both the Scirocco and Golf, as well as the TT for a few years now and no one including me see that as proof about it's possible racing pedigree.

It PR bullshit, nothing more.

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by footie

This is about the third race between a IS-F and M3 that I have seen and though this M3 is meant to be tweaked which resulted in a very close race (by the way there was a honk of a horn), in the other races where each were stock the IS-F did appear to be a bit quicker. So my guess is that though it's really a driver's race as to which should win, based on the ease of driver's involvement I would say that the IS-F is the quicker or at the very least the easier to achieve the desired results.

Like I stated before, video says nothing about M3 being modded (or the IS-F). It presents both cars as stock IN THIS VIDEO. Without knowing anything about modifications, nothing can be said since some modifications amount to no gains whatsoever. IS-F is easier to consistently achieve the maximum results because it is a press-and-go automatic slushbox that will run exactly the same every time. M3 was a 6 speed manual, which requires much more skills to wring out the best acceleration both in terms of launching and shifting. There are not lots of people out there who truly know how to race a 6 speed manual. The professional guys can achieve 12.5 - 12.7 secs in the 6 speed M3, but not a lot of regular drivers can. Sure, they drive their performance cars very well, but not necessarily know how to launch and shift the fastest they can. Apples to oranges.

Solution? Using launch control in M-DCT will control variables and yield results consistently avoiding human error skewing results. This is a far more valid comparison.

If you are saying that the M3 has a better transmission because according to dyno results it has less lose to the wheels then you are shooting yourself in the foot with this argument. What we see in this and other videos then is a car (according to you) with more power at the rear wheels and weighing less (M3) being beat by a heavier car with less true power (IS-F). Believe in dyno figures if you want but I think you would be a fool to do so.

Simple answer is, in a straight line having 8 short gears and more low end torque. When I have 8 gears, I better be accelerating well in a straight line. Both of these help the IS-F mitigate the handicap of weight and comparatively less power. Hence, the close straight line race between the two cars. That still does not take away from the fact that it loses close to 25% through the drivetrain.

Also being a M-DCT owner and someone who has owned other DCT transmission cars I can say that though the M3's version is good it have faults that detracted from the enjoyment and at times I wished I had as good a gearbox as the one in the IS-F or RS6, even though I know they are automatics.

I am 6 speed guy anyway. :-)

Don't know whether the IS-F brakes are that much better but the M3 brakes are far from the best on offer. Compared to Porsche they are not that good at all.

Why compare to Porsche? It is simply a different league.

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by ISFail

This is just getting insane! Firstly, 13 flat for the IS-F? Maybe an IS350, but the best stock run was a 12.38 at 115 mph and on average the IS-F is running mid 12's so you're way off.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Lexus-IS-F-Timeslip-17085.html

Like stated above, the numbers are close enough to make it is a driver's race in a straight line with a properly driven 6 speed manual M3 by a skilled driver or an M-DCT M3 using launch control from 5500 rpm.

Did you guys not read the comments under the M3 vs IS-F video? Quoted by the original poster of the video:

"M3 - deleted secondary cats and an aftermarket air filter. IS-F - bone stock."

Yep, I would count that as a "Modded" M3.....call me crazy!

Regardless, the M3 reeled in and pulled the IS-F nicely despite a late launch uptill 260 KM/H. Something you were completely in denial of and kept repeating the IS-F was some sort of a God in a straight line, which it is not.

For full 15 seconds through 1:01 to 1:14, I can see the IS-F complete fascia and lights are visible through most of the video making it clear that the M3 is atleast a car length ahead atleast uptil 280 KM/H (unless the cameraman suddenly decided to climb out of the M3 at 260 KM/H and sit on the hood to make it appear the M3 was ahead of the IS-F). After that, no wonder M3 was crippled in acceleration and could not go anywhere because it was governor limited.

If those mods amount to any power or performance increase, yes you are crazy. If it is a full exhaust modification alongwith software mod then it is a different thing for BMWs, I have been modding cars for many years and never have I seen deleting only secondary cats and aftermarket air filter giving more than 1 wheel HP or so without any kind of software modification.

Here is a thread of actual dyno numbers (not google searches) from actual IS-F owners from an actual IS-F forum:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-f...-thread-2.html

Wow, is that 357 rwhp (SAE smoothing 5)? Didn't see 333 rwhp, but then again, I didn't search "is-f dyno" on google And automatics on average lose more power through drivetrain loss in case you didn't know so that is solid.

Point taken. The dyno video I posted had shown the IS-F dyno'ing at 333 wheel HP and is SAE corrected. There could be variations in dynos, which is why SAE normalization is applied to standardize the dynos and make them comparable. Still there is no explaining why there is crazy variation in the IS-F dynos.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews.../photo_01.html

I've driven all three in this class (AMG, M3, ISF) and IN MY OPINION, the ISF's brakes felt the best. So the other kids in class can translate, I will cite Motor Trend who are notorious BMW fanatics:

"Constant grip levels range between 0.95 g (Lexus and Mercedes) to 0.97 for the BMW, so call this area a tie. Braking is much the same, with just a five-foot spread covering the three cars."

While you are at it, you might as well notice the acceleration numbers side by side. They both run 12.7 secs in that professsional test.

My work is done here and I'm sorry to disapoint so many of you who think the M3 is not only the greatest car of all time, the only car that exists in a proverbial world of incredulousness and inane rhetoric!

Thanks for coming out. Have a nice life!

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by ISFail

So which is it? First the said video was not a modded M3, now it's said mods are not enough to yield any gains

There is nothing in the description or in the title of the video or heck even in the intro of the video. Leaving the mods in the comment box makes no sense whatsoever. If the owner wanted to quote the mods, why did he not put it where everyone can clearly see it?? No sense!

You are the only person in here who thinks a drop in filter and complete cat delete will net only a 1 hp gain. I have seen actual dyno numbers mind you of a drop in gaining 5-10 whp and 15-20 whp from deleting cats.

Yes I do. Proof please?? With full exhaust, complete air intake kit and software modifications in BMW net anywhere between 10 - 25 wheel HP.

Unless I see before and after proof of just deleting a secondary cat and putting an air filter netting even 5 - 10 whp without any software modifications even to accomodate for it, yes I believe it will never net more than 1 wheel HP, if even that.

Point taken? Yeah, the point was that you Google IS-F dyno and posted the lowest number you could find to help prove your point instead of doing research and computing a better over all sample that is indicative of what an ISF is actually putting down to the wheels!

Hey! hey! don't get too carried away because I was being gracious. I could have easily posted even a lower one, but I did not. I have seen some other exceptionally low IS-F dyno numbers such as, 330 wheel HP like this.

http://www.dragtimes.com/2008-Lexus-...phs-14914.html

and the one I posted before:

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews.../photo_01.html

So question is, which one should I believe??

332 wheel HP, 333 wheel HP or 350 wheel HP and why???

If you tell me the IS-F can dyno from 330 to 350 wheel HP depending on the day, yes you are completely crazy. Something is really up with that engine to be having such crazy variations from car to car.

[Indykid]

I am not involved, but am looking at both cars to buy. Check out club lexus, most are dyno'd little over 350whp. There will always be low reading as well, just as some M3s are dynoing lower 300s.

[PowerLex]

Guys, relax. The ~333hp ISF dynos you are finding are the guys dynoing in Cali and such on 91 octane. Using 93 octane will yield 355-360 hp in the ISF.

[///M Pow3r]

=

[jaeS4]

^^^^ That's funny, but would you say the same thing about the new 7 series with it's tip not being connected to the actual tail pipe like the ones on the IS-F and the LS, i'm almost sure that most people here would justify it just because it's a BMW. Just like nobody ever criticized the Audi R8 or Lamborghini Murci and even the mighty Bugatti for doing the same thing. Quite hypocritical i have to say.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by jaeS4

^^^^ That's funny, but would you say the same thing about the new 7 series with it's tip not being connected to the actual tail pipe like the ones on the IS-F and the LS, i'm almost sure that most people here would justify it just because it's a BMW. Just like nobody ever criticized the Audi R8 or Lamborghini Murci and even the mighty Bugatti for doing the same thing. Quite hypocritical i have to say.

True, it seems to be en vogue to have exhaust tips being integrated into the bumper. However, that styling cue needs such a disconnected layout due to the expansion of the exhaust system. I can't really say that I like that move... There should be a petition against fake exhaust tips.


Best regards,
south

[///M Pow3r]

Originally Posted by jaeS4

^^^^ That's funny, but would you say the same thing about the new 7 series with it's tip not being connected to the actual tail pipe like the ones on the IS-F and the LS, i'm almost sure that most people here would justify it just because it's a BMW. Just like nobody ever criticized the Audi R8 or Lamborghini Murci and even the mighty Bugatti for doing the same thing. Quite hypocritical i have to say.

Fake exhaust tips on anything = fail. I don't care what make/model it is. On a 7 series it's not as big a deal since it's not a performance car, but it's still lame.

[jaeS4]

Originally Posted by ///M Pow3r

Fake exhaust tips on anything = fail. I don't care what make/model it is. On a 7 series it's not as big a deal since it's not a performance car, but it's still lame.

That's why i use the R8, Murcielago, and Veyron as examples. Those are true high performance cars and i don't remember anybody scrutinizing them at all. Where as the IS-F, everytime it's even mentioned, someone quickly post that picture up from Autospies which is not even accurate because that was a prototype. The production ones although still not connected, you can't put your hands like that, because the exaust tips runs throught the fake tips.

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by jimmy13

Just got back from the ride and drive for BMW. OMG is all I have to say.

The ISF is a good try for Lexus but it is not even in the same playing field and the M3.

The ISF is very nose heavy and at high speeds it's tight but out of the corners it lacks the thrust. It is a good car for someone that has never driven a BMW and wants a performance car.

The S5 I must say I am very destroyed on how this car handled, my god what was Audi thinking. The breaks were spongy, the steering at high speeds plain and simple SUCK!!!!! I was going 80 and started to corner and I felt like the car was not in my control at all between the servos kicking in on the steering giving me under and over steering issues the dam all wheel drive went nuts. It felt like the car was floating ala a fast couch 

The really missed the boat on this car for true performance.

The M3 is the king, the best dam car I have driven and I drive all of the BMW's for work. This car handles like the prom queen getting it on for the first time tight and cleans. I hit 110 on a straight away and it was just asking for more and then I took the corner hard minimal body roll and it was incredible.

I must say if you had doubts about how this would handle at high speeds, it is a sure bet you will LOVE and Lust this M3.

thank GOD i bought the M3 and not the lexus. s5 not a consideration the rs4 would have been. thanks for the comments

[jaeS4]

Originally Posted by bobbyd1961

thank GOD i bought the M3 and not the lexus. s5 not a consideration the rs4 would have been. thanks for the comments

You do realize that he's a salesman for BMW right? Just in case you didn't know. Regardless, you got the M3 already and i'm sure it's an awesome car, so good luck with it and enjoy, but be safe. But i wouldn't take anybody's review, always take it for a test drive and then make your own conclusion.

[keanu1]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

yes - the Audio RS5 will be mean.

Is this a new audio system for bmw?!?!

[ToothDoc]

Another rationale for the fake tips - if they were connected to the bumper, you'd screw up your exhaust system in a minor bumper accident. At least if somebody rear ends me lightly and hits my exhaust, it's really only the bumper they're hitting. But I think the argument is getting old now. It's happening to a lot of newer cars now and it's here to stay. I personally like it - to each their own.

[Epik]

Also, the fake tips stay clean. In some ways it makes a lot of sense.