Life After Warranty Voiding...

[sly1types]

Did you ever dyno your car to get the air/fuel ratio? Did you ever hear any pinging?

Like others said I think it might have been running a little lean, but these motors are not "proven" either...so you add the lean condition + track day heat + a little off balance then you get...failure

[aus]

Good luck with the build, but I don't know how one could blame BMW if the reason for this is detonation and you had a tune on your car?
Don't et me wrong that they treated you piss poor, particularly about the DCT oil change, but what if they opened your engine and found what you found? They would tell you it's detonation and give you a huge bill. Though I don't know which way would be cheaper, have the local dealer do it, or ship your engine to Germany?

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by aus

Good luck with the build, but I don't know how one could blame BMW if the reason for this is detonation and you had a tune on your car?
Don't et me wrong that they treated you piss poor, particularly about the DCT oil change, but what if they opened your engine and found what you found? They would tell you it's detonation and give you a huge bill. Though I don't know which way would be cheaper, have the local dealer do it, or ship your engine to Germany?

I am not blaming BMW for the whatever happened to my car. I am pissed off because they did the wrong diagnostic on the car and lied to me. They told me the car was fine when it was not. Then they voided warranty and still told me the car was fine when I knew it was not.Then they took a piss at the DCT gearbox by voiding the warranty on that as well because they knew they fucked up the oil change and it could come back to them later. And even if they opened up the engine here, I think none of the people here even know what detonation is or what damage it does. For Gods sake, they cant even do a damn compression test properly. Moreover, they wanted to attempt to repair the engine which I thought was over-ambitious. Very infact. Those were the reasons that made me decide with rebuilding it outside as I knew that my car would be destined to visit the dealership very often if things are not done properly. And here in Singapore, we dont have any lemon law or anything like that like you guys so it puts us shit out of luck. Also, we cant depend on the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act because there isnt such a thing here.

I am not here to beg BMW or attain any claim. I am only posting here because I feel to an extent that there are weak links in this engine that perhaps was accelerated by my tune no doubt. Even without it, I am confident it would have happened sooner or later. Also, at least by 1 forummer, it has been identified that some of the 2008 models have issues with the main bearings which was resolved in 2009 MY cars. Look here. Remember the ticking noises?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=main+bearings

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=snowm3

To summise, knifegun posted the following :

"My 2009 does not make the noise. I heard it was an issue with the main bearing on the 2008 models. The solution? Replace it which is very involved. This was resolved in 2009 with an updated design."

Regarding writing to Germany, I think they cant do much because BMW Asia is the operative in my country. Also, from some people in the industry whom I have good contact with have told me certain things which I am not sure is the truth but it sounds logical. BMW Asia buys most of the cars, at least for the Singapore market, WITHOUT warranty from factory. Only those selected "bread and butter" cars are bought with warranty as they make up the most volume. They float this warranty across the board and BMW Asia takes over the warranty. Cut costs, maximise profits. Quite sucky especially when you paid USD250k for a normal M3! Thats maybe why BMW Germany cant do anything the way I see it.

Also, when my problem came in last year around September, my dealer, has been stripped from selling anymore ///M cars. It went to a new dealer dedicated selling only M cars. Since they were still in the process of setting up, I had to bring my car back to the old dealer. I figured they didnt give a fuck cause they arent selling the M cars anyway and didnt want any burden to warrant or repair the car. Sounds logical innit from a corporate view?

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by dynamite

I had a similar problem with my E92 3.20D last year. There were strange (rattling) noises coming from the engine. I went to dealer and told them to check the engine. They couldn't find any faulty codes and said : "its the traditional sound of BMW engine, nothing is wrong". After 2000 kms the engine stopped while I was cruising around 120 KM/H on the road. They towed the car to the dealer and couldn't find whats wrong with the engine after inspected it nearly one month. Dealer sent some photos to the BMW AG (Germany) and they sent a new engine for replacement on warranty. After the car repaired I sold it and got the M3.

But now what I am reading is very sad and alarming. My car has no speed limitor from factory (I got M Driver's pack) and I generally do high speed tests (go over 300 KM/H on the clock). If the engine is not that reliable I don't think what I am gonna do if the same thing happens to me since my warrant is over now.

And also those service technicians here in my country don't have enough knowledge both about BMW engines and BMW cars. If I face with any problem about my car, I wrote directly to BMW AG (from their web) and they immediately contact with my local dealer and tell them the instructions. I told them to change my 6MT gearbox oil on my break in service and they refused to change because its unnecessary. I insisted but they didn't accept. Then I wrote BMW Germany and they called the dealer and told them to change my gearbox oil

At least, you could write or call BMW AG about the problems you have with your local dealer before you do anything on your engine. Anyway, what is done is done and I hope you figure out the problems... And its also nice decision for you to stay away from BMW in the future..

I think its not the car that is the problem. It is the dealer here and the jackasses they put here that is the problems. Problems can be solved and mitigated with the right people. Even if customers is at fault, a solution can be formulated and the customer can make a decision. In my case, nothing like that was ever done.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by sly1types

Did you ever dyno your car to get the air/fuel ratio? Did you ever hear any pinging?

Like others said I think it might have been running a little lean, but these motors are not "proven" either...so you add the lean condition + track day heat + a little off balance then you get...failure

Yes it was done though I cant remember the AFR ratios. We did a couple of runs on my car and he used a knockbox to check if there was any knocking. None. We went on road to fine tune and back on the dyno to check again. All perfect.
I had the car running really good for 6 months after that driving the light out of it and on the 3rd track day, it went bonkers. I agree the heat played a major part in the failure accelerated by the tune and perhaps some off balance. But it would have happened to me even in stock form, maybe itd just take a little longer.

[brava09]

How much is the total cost of rebuilding the engine?

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by brava09

How much is the total cost of rebuilding the engine?

About 20k USD.

- Steel Liners
- Forged Pistons with Heat Treat Coating
- Carillo H-Beam Connecting Rods
- Ported Intake Valves
- 5-Angle Valve Seating Arrangement
- CT-1 Coated Bearings

Here's a preview of the block.

[aus]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I am not blaming BMW for the whatever happened to my car. I am pissed off because they did the wrong diagnostic on the car and lied to me. They told me the car was fine when it was not. Then they voided warranty and still told me the car was fine when I knew it was not.Then they took a piss at the DCT gearbox by voiding the warranty on that as well because they knew they fucked up the oil change and it could come back to them later. And even if they opened up the engine here, I think none of the people here even know what detonation is or what damage it does. For Gods sake, they cant even do a damn compression test properly. Moreover, they wanted to attempt to repair the engine which I thought was over-ambitious. Very infact. Those were the reasons that made me decide with rebuilding it outside as I knew that my car would be destined to visit the dealership very often if things are not done properly. And here in Singapore, we dont have any lemon law or anything like that like you guys so it puts us shit out of luck. Also, we cant depend on the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act because there isnt such a thing here.

I am not here to beg BMW or attain any claim. I am only posting here because I feel to an extent that there are weak links in this engine that perhaps was accelerated by my tune no doubt. Even without it, I am confident it would have happened sooner or later. Also, at least by 1 forummer, it has been identified that some of the 2008 models have issues with the main bearings which was resolved in 2009 MY cars. Look here. Remember the ticking noises?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=main+bearings

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=snowm3

To summise, knifegun posted the following :

"My 2009 does not make the noise. I heard it was an issue with the main bearing on the 2008 models. The solution? Replace it which is very involved. This was resolved in 2009 with an updated design."

Regarding writing to Germany, I think they cant do much because BMW Asia is the operative in my country. Also, from some people in the industry whom I have good contact with have told me certain things which I am not sure is the truth but it sounds logical. BMW Asia buys most of the cars, at least for the Singapore market, WITHOUT warranty from factory. Only those selected "bread and butter" cars are bought with warranty as they make up the most volume. They float this warranty across the board and BMW Asia takes over the warranty. Cut costs, maximise profits. Quite sucky especially when you paid USD250k for a normal M3! Thats maybe why BMW Germany cant do anything the way I see it.

Also, when my problem came in last year around September, my dealer, has been stripped from selling anymore ///M cars. It went to a new dealer dedicated selling only M cars. Since they were still in the process of setting up, I had to bring my car back to the old dealer. I figured they didnt give a fuck cause they arent selling the M cars anyway and didnt want any burden to warrant or repair the car. Sounds logical innit from a corporate view?

I get what you're saying and and didn't know about the bottom end problems. I can't believe BMW has more bearing problems on an M cars after all the crap they had with the S54. Thanks.
It's too bad you don't have support of the stroker engine in Singapore since I think it's cheaper than what you're paying.

[FStop7]

No signs of broken or bent valves? It sounds like you spun a bearing at the track event. Were you always running OEM spec oil? I'm concerned by what I see in those pics.

Edit, nvm I see there was valve damage. Definitely sounds like detonation.

[M3Captain]

The porting and the valve job will definitely make a few more ponies!

[jimmyeatsworld]

Not to sound negative or anything I hope that you will at least end up with the same crank hp after all said and done.

Will you need a custom tune?

[moog55]

why can't the tune be identified? or was that addressed in the other thread?

[brava09]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

About 20k USD.

- Steel Liners
- Forged Pistons with Heat Treat Coating
- Carillo H-Beam Connecting Rods
- Ported Intake Valves
- 5-Angle Valve Seating Arrangement
- CT-1 Coated Bearings

Here's a preview of the block.

Wouldn't a new M3 engine cost about the same? Or is it more expensive?

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by brava09

Wouldn't a new M3 engine cost about the same? Or is it more expensive?

Heaps more expensive! A new M3 engine here costs 25,000 euro from the dealer or 40,000 USD.

Here are more recent photos :

[Georgeair]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Also, at least by 1 forummer, it has been identified that some of the 2008 models have issues with the main bearings which was resolved in 2009 MY cars. Look here. Remember the ticking noises?

"My 2009 does not make the noise. I heard it was an issue with the main bearing on the 2008 models."

Glad to see you're getting it rebuilt and properly - good luck!

Are you suggesting that there were other identified instances of main bearing issues documented elsewhere or is the sole source of that what knifeman "heard".

I'm not saying it's not possible, I've just never seen anything remotely like that and would be interested in any other first hand knowledge. Or direct second hand for that matter, anything beyond a one-person rumor.

Look forward to seeing the build progress.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by Georgeair

Glad to see you're getting it rebuilt and properly - good luck!

Are you suggesting that there were other identified instances of main bearing issues documented elsewhere or is the sole source of that what knifeman "heard".

I'm not saying it's not possible, I've just never seen anything remotely like that and would be interested in any other first hand knowledge. Or direct second hand for that matter, anything beyond a one-person rumor.

Look forward to seeing the build progress.

Thanks! This engine has to be rebuilt properly. Many things can go wrong if it is not done properly or meticulously. Regarding the bearings on the S65, I believe knifegun's case was one of the few who had it. Also, the M engines has been notorious for bad bearings. I am sure BMW is playing dumb on this otherwise it's not going to look good on them and imagine the number of recalls. I guess the sample pool is small for any form of alarm to M3 owners but I believe there was an issue with it. I am sure knifegun must have been advised what went wrong with his engine which is why he got a new car. BMW probably knew it would be uneconomical to tear down the engine just to replace the bearings. But then again the bearings looking like that could also be caused by the oil sump if it's not powerful enough to circulate pressure to the engine which would also induce bearings to have such 'oil starvation' marks. I don't know which is which but for 20,000km to look like that, WOW.

[Malek@MRF]

Robert is right, hand porting this motor will most likely result in no gains or loss of power gains and disrupt the VE. The head is already ported pretty aggressively from the factory and the CNC marks also lead to a better control of the air flow since they are parallel with the flow.

Like many have said, detonation could be the cause, but if that was the case, where is the damage to the valves and head itself? I have seen engine damage from detonation first hand many times along with a poorly balanced motor from the factory. To me it looks like it was off balance. This must be considered because the shop rebuilding his motor even said the crank is off balance.

Yes it's possible that the detonation through the balance of the crank off, but it would be to be very severe detonation for that to have happened, and nothing in the cylinder chamber or head show that. Your spark plug may have grown closer together because of the misfiring your motor is producing to begin with and distorted the tip. If those piston pieces would have flown around in your combustion chamber, your block would be near unrepairable right now.

[tightie]

If I were you I'd spend the extra money grand now and go 4.6 or build a low compression beast with a charger.

Trust me.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by tightie

If I were you I'd spend the extra money grand now and go 4.6 or build a low compression beast with a charger.

Trust me.

Its too late for me to do the 4.6 and also its very expensive itself just for the crank. The 4.6 consists of a 4.4 crank plus another 200cc from the bored out cylinders. My block is already prepared. And I am pretty happy with what I am seeing so far. This last series of M engines are NA and I want to retain the stock configuration so that it doest complicate things. I am not as lucky to be in a place where you have good support for these kinda modifications. So I am just playing safe. And I trust you because it took me an awfully long time to decide if I was going to supercharge this sucka. So yes the dark side of the force was VERY STRONG during that decision making time.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Robert is right, hand porting this motor will most likely result in no gains or loss of power gains and disrupt the VE. The head is already ported pretty aggressively from the factory and the CNC marks also lead to a better control of the air flow since they are parallel with the flow.

Like many have said, detonation could be the cause, but if that was the case, where is the damage to the valves and head itself? I have seen engine damage from detonation first hand many times along with a poorly balanced motor from the factory. To me it looks like it was off balance. This must be considered because the shop rebuilding his motor even said the crank is off balance.

Yes it's possible that the detonation through the balance of the crank off, but it would be to be very severe detonation for that to have happened, and nothing in the cylinder chamber or head show that. Your spark plug may have grown closer together because of the misfiring your motor is producing to begin with and distorted the tip. If those piston pieces would have flown around in your combustion chamber, your block would be near unrepairable right now.

I agree that the factory intakes are already very well ported seeing his RD progress thread. Well he is not done with the polishing the intake valves after the porting so we'll see how it looks like after that is done. I will post some pics here once that is done.

Regarding the valves, a few of them were warped and had to be changed. The rest were vacuum tested and they were absolutely fine. The cylinder head took some slight damage but it did not warp the heads or anything like that. It was cleaned up and there was some marks but they were slightly grinded off. These marks were basically foreign objects from the pieces of the piston which was damaged.

He remarked that the off balance of the crank by 1.3kgs was probably to do with the balancing at factory and at this margin of error, he was particularly surprised at such tolerance. The crank was not damaged at all from whatever happened in the cylinders but the bearings were in such a state that if I had not sent it in time, the block would be rendered unfixable once it eats through the bearings and it would be impossible to repair it.

The piston pieces damaged and scurred my cylinder walls heavily but since it was going to be bored out anyway to fit the liners, then it wouldn't be a big deal. The thruster bearings had an unusually amount of uneven wear and tear which exacerbated the wear on the other bearings holding the crank. If you look at the photos carefully, you will know what I mean.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

A number of exhaust valves were warped. Small pieces of aluminum piston don't usually destroy a cylinder. Neither engine balance nor misfires cause detonation, piston ring land failure, closed sparkplug electrode gap or warped exhaust valves, etc. Engine balance causes a vibration that you can feel if it's significantly out of balance. In addition the balance can be checked with the engine disassembled and is obviously being rebalanced with the use of new Con Rods, etc.

The funny thing is the right bank where Cylinder 5,6,7 and 8 is all had the most damage. The cylinders on the left bank 1,2,3 and 4 looked completely fine. Infact, for the left bank, everything looked pretty normal. That is unusually odd I find as I would have thought it would have been collateral damage to the whole engine if it was detonation.

Having said that, I did remember that after the 2nd track day, the engine was a little more rough than the first track day but didnt think much of it untill I heard the ticking noise which bothered me after the misfire. After even replacing the spark plugs, I had that ticking noise prior to tearing down the block. Cylinder 8 damage was the result from the misfire of the other cylinder in the same bank.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

Are you saying there was a lot of end-play due to thrust bearing failure? Did you measure the end-play while disassembling the motor?

He did not measure then end-play but by pushing it around before removing it, it was a little like Booker T's spinerooni. It was not seating firmly in other words.
It was reconfirmed once he sent the crank for balancing and at 1.3kgs off balance, it is definitely quite far off from what it should be.
Speaking of which, could the wear and tear of the bearings could have caused it to slowly create a greater off balance? Because looking at the thruster bearings, the wear looks like it is edging off towards the end??