Why not compete with a GTR?

[Hawker30]

Why doesn't BMW come out with a 1 year and year only model that competes with the raw power of GTR? Keep the incredible handling and luxury feel, but give it monster boost, why not??? Your thoughts.

[ToothDoc]

not enough profit for the R&D

[persian54]

Originally Posted by Hawker30

Why doesn't BMW come out with a 1 year and year only model that competes with the raw power of GTR? Keep the incredible handling and luxury feel, but give it monster boost, why not??? Your thoughts.

Because they're in the business of making money, not measuring to see whose is bigger.

[quiksi]

they do... it's called the X1 xDrive35i

[JTO24]

Originally Posted by quiksi

they do... it's called the X1 xDrive35i

Throw on a jb4.. Switzer killer

[speedaddictM3]

Originally Posted by Hawker30

Why doesn't BMW come out with a 1 year and year only model that competes with the raw power of GTR? Keep the incredible handling and luxury feel, but give it monster boost, why not??? Your thoughts.

Because loyal fanboys will always keep flocking to them, no matter how many turds they manufacture (e.g. X6M, 3 series GT, etc), and will never buy "just a Nissan" even if it can go at warp speed.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Hawker30

Why doesn't BMW come out with a 1 year and year only model that competes with the raw power of GTR? Keep the incredible handling and luxury feel, but give it monster boost, why not??? Your thoughts.

First of all, none of the actual M cognoscenti would view this type of effort as anything other than a bastardization of what M cars are all about.

Second, none of the actual M cognoscenti would view the current M3 as having incredible handling. It's very, very good on the street, but falls into sustained understeer in a track environment.

Third, the M3 makes its mark because it does nearly everything well. In fact, it may be the best overall compromise car that anyone has ever offered for sale. What you are envisioning would pretty much destroy that carefully designed compromise. Amongst other things, the car would gain a lot of weight (mostly in front) because of the added turbo hardware, intercooling, oversize radiator, larger front brakes, etc.

Then you'd need to strengthen the entire driveline from front to back in order to stand up to the extra torque, plus bigger rear brakes, plus bigger wheels and tires...

Of course at that point you'd still be less than competitive with the Nissan because you'd lack the traction you'd need in order to stay up, never mind the sophisticated AWD algorithms Nissan is using to perfect overall cornering capabilities. So, what? Add AWD?

Sure, but now you're even further away from what M cars are all about.

Bad idea.

Bruce

PS - Sure, BMW could do this. Hell, Hyundai could do this if they wanted to. The point would be, why bother.

[325rider]

Originally Posted by ToothDoc

not enough profit for the R&D

this
/thread
/not only one of the worst questions on the forum, but one of the worst questions financially/economically/business wise in general
/10/10 thread will read again

[991GT3]

Nissan isn't making money on the GTR. Why would BMW want to compete with that?

[Z K]

As others have mentioned, BMW out to make money. Making a GT-R killer will not make them any money given the additional costs to make such a car.

The GT-R is a halo car for Nissan, given its performance and costs - they probably lose money on every car but make it back in the positive draw it gives the brand as a whole.

[Ashley Schaeffer BMW]

BMW is making plenty by putting the same exact engine in 90% of their cars. Its about profit and living off of past greatness now.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

First of all, none of the actual M cognoscenti would view this type of effort as anything other than a bastardization of what M cars are all about.

Second, none of the actual M cognoscenti would view the current M3 as having incredible handling. It's very, very good on the street, but falls into sustained understeer in a track environment.

Third, the M3 makes its mark because it does nearly everything well. In fact, it may be the best overall compromise car that anyone has ever offered for sale. What you are envisioning would pretty much destroy that carefully designed compromise. Amongst other things, the car would gain a lot of weight (mostly in front) because of the added turbo hardware, intercooling, oversize radiator, larger front brakes, etc.

Then you'd need to strengthen the entire driveline from front to back in order to stand up to the extra torque, plus bigger rear brakes, plus bigger wheels and tires...

Of course at that point you'd still be less than competitive with the Nissan because you'd lack the traction you'd need in order to stay up, never mind the sophisticated AWD algorithms Nissan is using to perfect overall cornering capabilities. So, what? Add AWD?

Sure, but now you're even further away from what M cars are all about.

Bad idea.

Bruce

PS - Sure, BMW could do this. Hell, Hyundai could do this if they wanted to. The point would be, why bother.

+1

BMW is in the business of making money, not making cars.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by Hawker30

Why doesn't BMW come out with a 1 year and year only model that competes with the raw power of GTR? Keep the incredible handling and luxury feel, but give it monster boost, why not??? Your thoughts.

Not sure if it merits "incredible handling" accolades, but it ticks the rest of the boxes. Definitely competes in raw power:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...e/default.aspx

[nullrouted]

BMW might find themselves in an awkward position with the M4 (or maybe the next-gen M4) if you guys are right. Some reports are talking about the car being closer to $85-90k optioned than our $75k M3s. I don't know about you guys, but I'll pay another $10k to have a GT-R if it goes that high. I doubt I'm alone, what will BMW say then? You can't just keep raising prices year over year without even coming close to your competition in terms of power/handling.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably buy an M4 in 2-3 years -- but after that it'll be a GT3 or GT-R... At the $100k price point BMW really has nothing to offer (sorry F10 guys, it's not worth the money).

[Hawker30]

You all make great points! Thanks for the reply.

[LarThaL]

These are two very different types of cars. One is a pure performance monster and the other is a balanced yet very capable luxury performance coupe. If you want all the performance of a GTR and a high amount of luxury and refinement, there is a car for you...a 911 turbo S. It costs about as much much as a GTR and and M3 together.

I am actually eagerly awaiting the next gen Z06 Vette. With all the refinement of the new model, and the performance upgrades of the ZO6, this will be a true force to be reckoned with. Still, it will take the ZR1 version to take a GTR, which it does already.

[Hawker30]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

These are two very different types of cars. One is a pure performance monster and the other is a balanced yet very capable luxury performance coupe. If you want all the performance of a GTR and a high amount of luxury and refinement, there is a car for you...a 911 turbo S. It costs about as much much as a GTR and and M3 together.

I am actually eagerly awaiting the next gen Z06 Vette. With all the refinement of the new model, and the performance upgrades of the ZO6, this will be a true force to be reckoned with. Still, it will take the ZR1 version to take a GTR, which it does already.

Funny you say that, I'm test driving one next week.

[Longboarder]

I wonder how much a new GTR could cost if Nissan didn't subsidize them and sold them at a normalized profit margin.

Anyone?

[MTrezzz]

M6 Vs GTR?????

[speedaddictM3]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

These are two very different types of cars. One is a pure performance monster and the other is a balanced yet very capable luxury performance coupe. If you want all the performance of a GTR and a high amount of luxury and refinement, there is a car for you...a 911 turbo S. It costs about as much much as a GTR and and M3 together.

I am actually eagerly awaiting the next gen Z06 Vette. With all the refinement of the new model, and the performance upgrades of the ZO6, this will be a true force to be reckoned with. Still, it will take the ZR1 version to take a GTR, which it does already.

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I wonder how much a new GTR could cost if Nissan didn't subsidize them and sold them at a normalized profit margin.

Anyone?

Maybe twice? Three times? Look at the LFA price, and Lexus still loses money on them.The problem isn't really the cost of materials or labor to make the car. It has more to do with the R&D to design and develop the car. That cost is very high for companies like Nissan and Toyota that do not have previous supercar experience to rely on, and that is made worse by making those cars bespoke and not sharing their platform with the rest of the line up like what Porsche or BMW do. Limited production numbers also make it more difficult for those car makers to break even and recoup their costs while keeping the car's price reasonable. The GT-R really is one hell of a bargain.

[osteome]

Originally Posted by 325rider

this
/thread
/not only one of the worst questions on the forum, but one of the worst questions financially/economically/business wise in general
/10/10 thread will read again

[cris///M3]

Originally Posted by nullrouted

BMW might find themselves in an awkward position with the M4 (or maybe the next-gen M4) if you guys are right. Some reports are talking about the car being closer to $85-90k optioned than our $75k M3s. I don't know about you guys, but I'll pay another $10k to have a GT-R if it goes that high. I doubt I'm alone, what will BMW say then? You can't just keep raising prices year over year without even coming close to your competition in terms of power/handling.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably buy an M4 in 2-3 years -- but after that it'll be a GT3 or GT-R... At the $100k price point BMW really has nothing to offer (sorry F10 guys, it's not worth the money).