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10-17-2013, 12:39 PM | #45 |
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Read it as you want to convince yourself but that is not what it reads
I also talked to the regional manager for the south east and the shop forman for our local dealer yesterday and he said any LL01 oil is approved. 3 separate bulletins *The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time. •BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines •Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil ◦BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420 or•Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil ◦BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195 The bullets represent 3 different options, there is no part number for the first option. That means any oil outside of castrol that has LL01 approval can be used. We can argue about it all day because some will never be convinced but it is in writing.
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10-17-2013, 12:47 PM | #46 | |
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10-17-2013, 01:09 PM | #47 | |
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" *The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time." That could mean they are not done and saying here is the list. That means they have one other thing to say. Therefore its possible it is not the list following that statement. Look at the oil for the Alpina B7, there is clearly a list. So then if it is a list as you say, i still think it is saying only BMW LL-01 approved for BMW M engines. I'd just hate for somebody to go thru hell if anything should happen to their motor, just because there is a possibility that this was all read wrong.
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10-17-2013, 01:44 PM | #48 | |
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There are a few oils that say "Meets LL01" this is not the same as "LL01 approval". I see your point but there is no such thing as a LL01 for M engines certification. The wording is so you will keep buying the castrol but they can't differentiate when it comes down to it.
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10-17-2013, 02:19 PM | #49 |
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I'd get that in writing, such as in an email from BMW NA. It's easy to imagine BMW trying to get out of a warranty claim by saying that you misread the bulletin and only the two specific oils listed are approved. Better to have something in your file just in case than to rely on verbal representations.
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10-17-2013, 02:29 PM | #50 | |
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Interesting, I thought about this also, ie 'deliberate ambiguity'. Concept seen in corporate law, where contracts are written in such a way so as to cause enough ambiguity where something can be interpreted either way. A simple letter to BMW NA for clarification should get a response. If no response, then you have to wonder..
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10-17-2013, 02:46 PM | #51 | |
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I guess it also depends on how much pull the dealer has.
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10-17-2013, 02:50 PM | #52 |
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I just sent the question to BMW NA. We'll see what the answer, if any, is.
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10-18-2013, 02:18 PM | #53 | |
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10-18-2013, 05:01 PM | #54 |
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Good news is that courts typically construe such ambiguity against the drafter (i.e., BMW). Bad news is that you'd need to be in a court before that helped you....
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10-19-2013, 04:51 PM | #55 |
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Cool, yea and if all LL-01 oils are OK hopefully they fix their grammar on the page!
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10-22-2013, 11:30 AM | #56 |
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So I heard back from BMW, but not via email. Instead, a representative called me directly to answer my question. I worded my question as follows:
BMW recently released a technical bulletin entitled "BMW CURRENT LISTING OF SYNTHETIC OILS (US Market)" (BMW Recommended/Approved synthetic oils doc. August 2013, Version 2.0).And I was hoping for a simple answer but alas, it was not to be. First, the representative was very nice and wanted to be helful but I concluded that they are very constrained in what they can say. She never answered the question directly and simply stated that BMW Long-life synthetic oils are approved. It became clear that she was also a little confused and her final answer after some back and forth was that BMW recommends the Castrol products listed and BMW Long-life synthetic. With regards to the latter she answered that it was the BMW branded oil but could not answer what weight it was; she also mentioned that some oil was OK for a top-off only but not for a full change. She would not anwer whether Mobil 1 0W40 could be used and said that I could go to the dealer and ask. BMW can recommend only BMW oil or Castrol (presumably due to the contact between the two companies). So after this fruitless endeavor I looked online a bit more and found a bulletin from January 2008 entitled "BMW Current Listing of Synthetic Oils (US Market)." I think that bulletin helps clarify how the new one should be read. The Jan. 2008 bulletin states, in part: I think the Jan. 2008 bulletin clarifies that the sentence enumerating the M engine types for which the specification applies is just an introductory sentence, and is not meant to be read as allowing any LL-01 oil to be used. It should be read as stating that the only LL-01 oils approved for use in the S65 are the two listed oils. It's too bad that I did not get a definitive answer from BMW. Nevertheless, I will stick with the 10W60 because of warranty coverage concerns, and won't go to the 0W40. In researching I did find it interesting that the Castrol site for Australia listed the 10W60 as specified for M engines "which operate under higher pressures." |
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10-22-2013, 12:55 PM | #57 |
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Thanks, rantar. This is still ridiculous -- intentionally worded to be ambiguous. Does anyone here have contacts within BMW to get a better answer?
There has been considerable discussion on Bob Is The Oil Guy. The interpretation there seems to be "any LL-01-approved oil is okay". http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=3143850
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10-22-2013, 01:19 PM | #58 |
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So best bet to be safe when under warranty is to continue to use 10W-60 and follow the warm up process before upping the RPMs. I'm thinking guys/gals out of warranty who use M1 0W-40 that change their oil every 5k miles will be ok. But dont chance it if under warranty. Just not worth the risk ya know.
This is what I got from all of this.
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10-22-2013, 09:51 PM | #59 | |
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Thanks rantar, no written answers and the verbal one was still ambiguous, but I think your analysis of the wording is spot on and I guess we can use also Castrol Edge 5W-30 professional (which is the low ash diesel one?)
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10-22-2013, 10:29 PM | #60 | |
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It is an LL-04 oil, yes, but all LL-04 oils are also LL-01 approved. It is not the other way around though.
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10-23-2013, 07:07 AM | #61 |
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If you simply read it as written there are three bullet points thus three options:
1. BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines 2. Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420 or 3. Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195 |
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10-23-2013, 08:11 AM | #62 | |
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On another forum someone listed the "Operating Fluids" section from TIS. It was dated January 2013 and it indicated: Motorsport engines using BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil Castrol RS SAE 10W-60 also called Castrol TWSMy opinion is that the change only replaced the Castrol RS SAE 10W-60 with the Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 for the U.S. market, and nothing more. The funniest part of all of this is that Castrol literature states that the Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W-30 "[s]hould not be used in BMW gasoline engines outside of the European Union." With all this confusion one thing remains certain - Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 remains approved for the S65. See: http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/327FECC588E3ADE480257AD3003FBDCB/$File/PDS%20CCSA%20Castrol%20EDGE%20Professional%20OE%20 5W-30%20English.pdf |
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10-23-2013, 08:14 AM | #63 | |
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Look at this page from the Castrol Australia website listing various 5W-30's: http://www.castrol.com/castrol/multi...tentId=7024136 It must be that they change the naming convention from continent to continent. The BMW TIS referenced in my prior post states: The BMW approved motor oil for the diesel powered 335d and the X5 xDrive35d as announced in Service InformationNote that TIS identifies the oil as SLX while the new bulletin uses EDGE instead; I do not know if they are the same oil. |
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10-23-2013, 08:19 AM | #64 |
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10-23-2013, 08:43 AM | #65 |
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I think that's the problem -- it says "BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles". There is no such list of M-specific LL-01 oils. If they had meant the whole LL-01 list, it would just say "BMW LL-01".
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10-23-2013, 09:10 AM | #66 | ||
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The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasloline engines, at the present time. BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M Vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines Means: BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils, for BMW M Vehicles equipped with: S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines But you can convince yourself whatever you want to believe. Quote:
It only says that they are "endorsed for use in BMW M-Model engines": http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/6FDB8BF64A70767380257B520054A718/$File/BPXE-96ZTLQ.pdf 0.02 Last edited by Billj747; 10-23-2013 at 09:19 AM.. |
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