Dyno Shootout: Battle between Dinan and RD Sport for 4.6 Liter Stroker Motor Braggin

[Sam@Alekshop]

I put together this graph showing the horsepower and torque comparison per RPM of the RD Sport vs. Dinan vs. Alekshop M3. Both max and min are shown for each. In a nutshell, here it is.

RD Sport vs. Dinan
HP Max: 23.8hp @ 6290 RPM
TQ Max: 36.3tq @ 3000 RPM

RD Sport vs. Alekshop M3
HP Max: 48.0 @ 5510 RPM
TQ Max: 50.7 @ 3580 RPM

Dinan vs. Alekshop M3
HP Max: 30.5 @ 5700 RPM
TQ Max: 28.2 @ 5690 RPM

[Sam@Alekshop]

Originally Posted by AirbusPilot

Are you sure about that math?

I'm calculating a 2.6% increase in HP and a 16% torque increase for the RD.

The Dinan lost hp <1%, and only gained about 9% torque.

In this comparison, at least. Assuming you're talking peak numbers.

Here's how I got these numbers. And indeed they were based on peak numbers. Earlier I just truncated the results. This time I'll do the proper thing and round them instead.

Dinan:
Displacement: 4608cc, Displacement stock: 3999cc
HP Stroker: 375whp, HP Baseline: 353whp
TQ Stroker: 296wtq, TQ Baseline: 256wtq

Displacement Increase: 4608 / 3999 = 1.152 (15%)
HP Increase: 375 / 353 = 1.062 (6%)
TQ Increase: 296 / 256 = 1.156 (16%)

RD Sport:
Displacement: 4619cc, Displacement stock: 3999cc
HP Stroker: 390whp, HP Baseline: 338whp
TQ Stroker: 316wtq, TQ Baseline: 247wtq

Displacement Increase: 4619 / 3999 = 1.155 (16%)
HP Increase: 390 / 338 = 1.153 (15%)
TQ Increase: 316 / 247 = 1.279 (28%)

I hope this helps.

[AirbusPilot]

Originally Posted by Sam@Alekshop

Here's how I got these numbers. And indeed they were based on peak numbers. Earlier I just truncated the results. This time I'll do the proper thing and round them instead.

Dinan:
Displacement: 4608cc, Displacement stock: 3999cc
HP Stroker: 375whp, HP Baseline: 353whp
TQ Stroker: 296wtq, TQ Baseline: 256wtq

Displacement Increase: 4608 / 3999 = 1.152 (15%)
HP Increase: 375 / 353 = 1.062 (6%)
TQ Increase: 296 / 256 = 1.156 (16%)

RD Sport:
Displacement: 4619cc, Displacement stock: 3999cc
HP Stroker: 390whp, HP Baseline: 338whp
TQ Stroker: 316wtq, TQ Baseline: 247wtq

Displacement Increase: 4619 / 3999 = 1.155 (16%)
HP Increase: 390 / 338 = 1.153 (15%)
TQ Increase: 316 / 247 = 1.279 (28%)

I hope this helps.

It does. I was using the orange car's stock numbers for the comparison (from post #1).

If displacement was the only change, I wouldn't expect much except for the mild bump in torque. Of course, whatever tune/intake/exhaust account for a significant portion of the power gain.

[sales@ESSTuning]

There is a considerable difference between a properly tuned 4.6 S65 and a stock 4.0 S65. Properly tuning a 4.6 is actually very simple if you know what your doing. When we tuned a RD sport 4.6 car here it made a lot more power than a typical stock M3 does. It took us only about 2 days to fine tune this car from scratch. Stock M3's on our current dyno make around 325-335 whp SAE on 91 octane fuel. Tuned M3's with high flow or catless exhaust typically make around 345-355 whp on 91 octane. Taking that into consideration and knowing what we were able to make with a 4.6 M3 you should expect at least a 15% gain in power with a properly tuned 4.6 over stock and at least a 10% gain in power over a tuned 4.0 with exhaust if not more.


This is a general comparison between stock and a 4.6 we tuned on the same dyno.

This is a general comparison between a tuned M3 with high flow cats VS the 4.6 we tuned on the same dyno.

After we tuned this 4.6 RD sport car we took it out and ran it against our VT2-575 "now VT2-585" spec supercharged car for fun.

The 4.6 did much better than a stock DCT M3 did against this same supercharged M3 considering the 4.6 car was a manual.

[biglare]

BOOM!!!

[Sam@Alekshop]

Originally Posted by AirbusPilot

It does. I was using the orange car's stock numbers for the comparison (from post #1).

If displacement was the only change, I wouldn't expect much except for the mild bump in torque. Of course, whatever tune/intake/exhaust account for a significant portion of the power gain.

If you want to track this a little closer, you might want to check the Dyno Database for each of these cars because it will break down the mods and the differences in the mods between dyno sessions.

RD Sport Stroker:
http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=607

Dinan Stroker:
http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=604

Alekshop M3. As you can see this car isn't stock because it's catless, ESS Tuned, and Akra GT4 exhaust. Unfortunately there are no stock dyno's for this car to compare against.
http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=610

[Sam@Alekshop]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

There is a considerable difference between a properly tuned 4.6 S65 and a stock 4.0 S65. Properly tuning a 4.6 is actually very simple if you know what your doing. When we tuned a RD sport 4.6 car here it made a lot more power than a typical stock M3 does. It took us only about 2 days to fine tune this car from scratch. Stock M3's on our current dyno make around 325-335 whp SAE on 91 octane fuel. Tuned M3's with high flow or catless exhaust typically make around 345-355 whp on 91 octane. Taking that into consideration and knowing what we were able to make with a 4.6 M3 you should expect at least a 15% gain in power with a properly tuned 4.6 over stock and at least a 10% gain in power over a tuned 4.0 with exhaust if not more.


This is a general comparison between stock and a 4.6 we tuned on the same dyno.

This is a general comparison between a tuned M3 with high flow cats VS the 4.6 we tuned on the same dyno.

After we tuned this 4.6 RD sport car we took it out and ran it against our VT2-575 "now VT2-585" spec supercharged car for fun.

The 4.6 did much better than a stock DCT M3 did against this same supercharged M3 considering the 4.6 car was a manual.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

[CENTER]There is a considerable difference between a properly tuned 4.6 S65 and a stock 4.0 S65. Properly tuning a 4.6 is actually very simple if you know what your doing. When we tuned a RD sport 4.6 car here it made a lot more power than a typical stock M3 does. It took us only about 2 days to fine tune this car from scratch. Stock M3's on our current dyno make around 325-335 whp SAE on 91 octane fuel. Tuned M3's with high flow or catless exhaust typically make around 345-355 whp on 91 octane. Taking that into consideration and knowing what we were able to make with a 4.6 M3 you should expect at least a 15% gain in power with a properly tuned 4.6 over stock and at least a 10% gain in power over a tuned 4.0 with exhaust if not more.

I am glad that you posted this since I was going to inquire with you about your interest in tuning a stroker for me when I go that route. At first I was thinking of going with a Dinan Stroker but considering free install and the better rods of the RDS Stroker I will probably go that route and take a vacation to California with my wife to drop the car off. Once I pick the car up I will most likely make the route back to Canada include a stop to ESS to tune the thing. Only thing I need to do now is decide on displacement?!?! Stock bore size or 1MM over?!?!


How about Cams Roman? Are you willing and able to tune the stroker for cams if I decide to go with a set of more aggressive cams for my build????

Originally Posted by swhat

Awesome but kinda sucks that your only getting an extra 20-30hp with a stroker kit wick cost 30k. I was hoping that the strokers would put out 450+hp.

Originally Posted by kiln

My thoughts after reading this article. Buy a ESS tune and exhaust for the stock 4.0L and save yourself 30k.

Originally Posted by SYZ

Great job documenting the monumental waste of money stroker kits are.

Originally Posted by Alekshop

Stroker motors are great! Just requires a proper tune!

Originally Posted by RBB

Cool thread. I'm severely underwhelmed by those dyno #'s on the strokers, though. You'd have to be crazy to spend $30K for one of those. Just supercharge it and call it a day.

The strokers are not just all about max power, nor is ever the case when comparing NA to FI with roughly the same displacement. I want to do a stroker to be able to build the bottom end of my car to allow me to have the main and rod clearances set at a spec that is more in my comfort zone..... No matter what I have posted in the past, there is always something in the back of my head that tells me 0.001" is too tight for an engine like this, maybe it is the mechanic in me that is causing this.

Basically a stroker is a way to get a totally fresh engine, built to my specs with upgraded parts, proper clearances (in my opinion) and a bit more power to boot........ For someone that intends to keep their M3 forever and wants to keep the engine NA with a stock like power delivery, a stroker is the ticket IMO!

[RBB]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

The strokers are not just all about max power, nor is ever the case when comparing NA to FI with roughly the same displacement. I want to do a stroker to be able to build the bottom end of my car to allow me to have the main and rod clearances set at a spec that is more in my comfort zone..... No matter what I have posted in the past, there is always something in the back of my head that tells me 0.001" is too tight for an engine like this, maybe it is the mechanic in me that is causing this.

Basically a stroker is a way to get a totally fresh engine, built to my specs with upgraded parts, proper clearances (in my opinion) and a bit more power to boot........ For someone that intends to keep their M3 forever and wants to keep the engine NA with a stock like power delivery, a stroker is the ticket IMO!

I see your point, BMRLVR. If one intended on keeping the car forever a stroker motor would definitely be the way to go for peace of mind and a bump in power to boot. Why not a supercharged stroker since you'll be setting the main and rod clearances to something you're more comfortable with? I'm sure ESS could arrange that for you....

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by swhat

Awesome but kinda sucks that your only getting an extra 20-30hp with a stroker kit wick cost 30k. I was hoping that the strokers would put out 450+hp.

Originally Posted by kiln

My thoughts after reading this article. Buy a ESS tune and exhaust for the stock 4.0L and save yourself 30k.

Originally Posted by SYZ

Great job documenting the monumental waste of money stroker kits are.

Originally Posted by Alekshop

Stroker motors are great! Just requires a proper tune!

Originally Posted by RBB

Cool thread. I'm severely underwhelmed by those dyno #'s on the strokers, though. You'd have to be crazy to spend $30K for one of those. Just supercharge it and call it a day.

Originally Posted by RBB

I see your point, BMRLVR. If one intended on keeping the car forever a stroker motor would definitely be the way to go for peace of mind and a bump in power to boot. Why not a supercharged stroker since you'll be setting the main rod clearances to something you're more comfortable with? I'm sure ESS could arrange that for you....

I want an NA car, as nice as the power of an SC would be, I want to keep the engine/power delivery like original........ Original with a little bit more

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I want an NA car, as nice as the power of an SC would be, I want to keep the engine/power delivery like original........ Original with a little bit more

For a $8k investment , I now have 500whp and my power delivery feel exacly like stock except a lot faster! I even drove a Gallardo not long ago and felt that the power delivery was almost identical to my M3, I was really happy to see that!! It's your money but for $30k I would buy nothing else then a VT3 with a low compression engine unless you're afraid of power! But seriously I just can't understand putting that kind of money to gain reliability + 30-40hp on an already reliable engine!!

[Richbot]

I share BMRLVR's sentiment. If I ever need an engine replacement I will likely do a stroker while I'm in there unless Kinetic or another race shop that has S65 experience can do a stock displacement rebuild for significantly cheaper. Have no interest in FI, as cool as it would be to have 500whp the car is already stupidly fast for a street car and I prefer not to layer another complexity on top of an already complex machine

[duk]

i wonder how the stock 4.4 liter GTS dynos compared to this

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

For a $8k investment , I now have 500whp and my power delivery feel exacly like stock except a lot faster! I even drove a Gallardo not long ago and felt that the power delivery was almost identical to my M3, I was really happy to see that!! It's your money but for $30k I would buy nothing else then a VT3 with a low compression engine unless you're afraid of power! But seriously I just can't understand putting that kind of money to gain reliability + 30-40hp on an already reliable engine!!

I am definitely not scared of power....... I intend on building an older Camaro or Chevelle in a few years with a GM LSX that will most likely have turbos on it...... 1000+ Pump Gas HP is my goal.

As for the engine in my M3, I love the M3 in it's stock form and I want to be able to have something with a little more power and some peace of mind that it is going to last the test of time. There is a good chance that when my engine comes apart it will be perfect, but in my opinion, once you remove the bedplate the engine deserves nothing less than a full build on the bottom end with properly specced clearances. As I mentioned before, I will never be parting with my E90 and I don't mind the investment since for me it will last a lifetime.

Originally Posted by Richbot

I share BMRLVR's sentiment. If I ever need an engine replacement I will likely do a stroker while I'm in there unless Kinetic or another race shop that has S65 experience can do a stock displacement rebuild for significantly cheaper. Have no interest in FI, as cool as it would be to have 500whp the car is already stupidly fast for a street car and I prefer not to layer another complexity on top of an already complex machine

I am sure anyone who builds strokers will be able to do a stock displacement rebuild....... even if there is cylinder wear, there would be no problem with boring 1mm over and using stock crank and rods. According to Robert (PG) Dinan's machine shop is excellent and they would bore the block and have your journals sized on your stock crank to obtain oil clearances to your specs without issue....... Pricing would be the only issue with Dinan, one would have to inquire!

[sales@ESSTuning]

BMRLVR we can tune for cams as long as we have the car here.

[Kaane]

Damn those strokers make no power, they need massive headwork or better cams. Soo much power lost up top. Such a waste to spend so much and not address airflow and have proper cams.

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by swhat

Awesome but kinda sucks that your only getting an extra 20-30hp with a stroker kit wick cost 30k. I was hoping that the strokers would put out 450+hp.

I agree and the fact that the new F series M3/M4 is on the horizon the prices should be half of this. I dont see E36 M3 or E46 M3 stroker kits over $30k today in 2013. lol

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

BMRLVR we can tune for cams as long as we have the car here.

You sure would have the car there! Give me a bit to get this all in order. I am currently building a new house but once that is done I will be in touch, by next summer I should be ready to start the build!

[Sam@Alekshop]

I thought it might be a good idea to add more details about the price of the strokers and mention a few possible misconceptions I've seen in the thread.

At Alekshop, we track our cars -- a lot. On a tight, technical road course, the stroker will shine over the supercharged car. The stroker will pull you out of the corners and you may never see the upper RPM's on many place on the course where the supercharger shines most. On fast tracks, the supercharger might do best. Our shop sits between Laguna Seca Raceway, Infineon Raceway, and Thunderhill Raceway. I can best sum my feelings by saying we're building a stroker for our own Limerock shop car and we'll share the build details with readers as the build progresses.

Second, it's probably a good idea to put the true cost of a stroker into perspective. The prices posted in this article are MSRP prices. As we all know, prices are always negotiable. Both Dinan and RD Sport have somewhat negotiable prices. And if you consider free installation with RD Sport (~$4k value), the true cost of the basic stroker is about $19k. Still a lot of money, but nowhere near the $30k that keeps popping up in comments.

If you have the ability to build your own stroker or have your own friends build it for you, you can probably purchase the bare components, pre-balanced with all gaskets for less than $15k -- nearly identical to the cost of the superchargers, minus installation.

I also thought it might be fun to compare the stroker to some of the supercharger entries in the Dyno Database. This should give you an idea of the torque I'm talking about.

Car-1: RD Sport stroker with experimental short-tube headers, RD Sport exhaust, 91 Octane.
Car-2: ESS Supercharged VT1-535, 5.5 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=354)
Car-3: ESS Supercharged, VT2-600, 6.0 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=298)
Car-4: ESS Supercharged VT2-650, 8.5 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=538)
Car-5: RD Sport stroker + ESS Supercharged, 5.75 PSI boost. (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=149)

First thing to notice is the stroker has more torque and horsepower than all the supercharged cars up to 6000 RPMs, except the VT2-650. That's more tq and hp in 3/4 the power band. The VT2-650 beats the stroker after 4000 RPMs (a little more than half the RPM range). But if you want to see the real torque monster, see what happens in Car-5 when you supercharge the stroker.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by Sam@Alekshop

I thought it might be a good idea to add more details about the price of the strokers and mention a few possible misconceptions I've seen in the thread.

At Alekshop, we track our cars -- a lot. On a tight, technical road course, the stroker will shine over the supercharged car. The stroker will pull you out of the corners and you may never see the upper RPM's on many place on the course where the supercharger shines most. On fast tracks, the supercharger might do best. Our shop sits between Laguna Seca Raceway, Infineon Raceway, and Thunderhill Raceway. I can best sum my feelings by saying we're building a stroker for our own Limerock shop car and we'll share the build details with readers as the build progresses.

Second, it's probably a good idea to put the true cost of a stroker into perspective. The prices posted in this article are MSRP prices. As we all know, prices are always negotiable. Both Dinan and RD Sport have somewhat negotiable prices. And if you consider free installation with RD Sport (~$4k value), the true cost of the basic stroker is about $19k. Still a lot of money, but nowhere near the $30k that keeps popping up in comments.

If you have the ability to build your own stroker or have your own friends build it for you, you can probably purchase the bare components, pre-balanced with all gaskets for less than $15k -- nearly identical to the cost of the superchargers, minus installation.

I also thought it might be fun to compare the stroker to some of the supercharger entries in the Dyno Database. This should give you an idea of the torque I'm talking about.

Car-1: RD Sport stroker with experimental short-tube headers, RD Sport exhaust, 91 Octane.
Car-2: ESS Supercharged VT1-535, 5.5 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=354)
Car-3: ESS Supercharged, VT2-600, 6.0 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=298)
Car-4: ESS Supercharged VT2-650, 8.5 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=538)
Car-5: RD Sport stroker + ESS Supercharged, 5.75 PSI boost. (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=149)

First thing to notice is the stroker has more torque and horsepower than all the supercharged cars up to 6000 RPMs, except the VT2-650. That's more tq and hp in 3/4 the power band. The VT2-650 beats the stroker after 4000 RPMs (a little more than half the RPM range). But if you want to see the real torque monster, see what happens in Car-5 when you supercharge the stroker.

That's a great package you guys are producing and at your target price, it'll be a winner. Can't wait to see it running!

[MidnightM3]

I reviewed similar research when making my decision to go stroker or supercharged. Glad I went with the ESS supercharger! Seems like a lot of work and money for very little gains.

Driving style or purpose aside, a stroker vs. supercharger head to head comparison is a pretty clear decision when looking at these dynos and the driver of the supercharged M3 would still have another $20k in his pocket.

I too have no idea why someone would shell out all that money for such small gains. A stroker is a "cool to have", but a bolt on M3 is pretty much on par in terms of performance when compared to a stroker M3 and still costs far less than all other options (including supercharging)!

[MidnightM3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

There is a considerable difference between a properly tuned 4.6 S65 and a stock 4.0 S65. Properly tuning a 4.6 is actually very simple if you know what your doing. When we tuned a RD sport 4.6 car here it made a lot more power than a typical stock M3 does. It took us only about 2 days to fine tune this car from scratch. Stock M3's on our current dyno make around 325-335 whp SAE on 91 octane fuel. Tuned M3's with high flow or catless exhaust typically make around 345-355 whp on 91 octane. Taking that into consideration and knowing what we were able to make with a 4.6 M3 you should expect at least a 15% gain in power with a properly tuned 4.6 over stock and at least a 10% gain in power over a tuned 4.0 with exhaust if not more.


This is a general comparison between stock and a 4.6 we tuned on the same dyno.

This is a general comparison between a tuned M3 with high flow cats VS the 4.6 we tuned on the same dyno.

After we tuned this 4.6 RD sport car we took it out and ran it against our VT2-575 "now VT2-585" spec supercharged car for fun.

The 4.6 did much better than a stock DCT M3 did against this same supercharged M3 considering the 4.6 car was a manual.

Now that's a little more exciting!