Is supercharging the S65 really worth it?

[Dav3]

Supercharging the E92 M3 is mostly shown on videos and written about by owners as absolutely worth the huge premium.

And indeed I do think supercharging the S65 transforms the M3 into a whole other animal.

However, I feel like a lot of owners rarely share the drawbacks and/or negatives of the conversion kits. Understandably so, after spending 10k on a single mod, a bit of buyer bias makes it unlikely to be negative about it.

But just out of curiosity, for those who own, have owned, have tried a supercharged one. Is it really worth it? I’m trying to get back into an e92 m3 with the sole purpose of going supercharged. It’s an itch I want to scratch. But the used market is just crazy right now, and the premium entry level price for a half sorted one + the supercharger cost, would get me really close to a lot of better value oriented alternatives.

So yeah, just trying to understand for myself if supercharging is going to feel worth it at the current markets huge premium.

Cheers,
Dave

[Soden82]

I recently bought an already ESS G1 supercharged e92 in October because I drove a lightly modded e92 and then a supercharged one and I felt like the premium was worth it, but I personally did not want to spend the $10,000 on parts and labor to do it.

I think the detriment to supercharging is that you lose some of the NA characteristics, maintenance items under the plenum are a pain, more wear and tear on tensioners and pulleys so those need more frequent replacing, and added under hood temperatures during tracking or spirited driving.

Of course we all know the benefits.

I found a smoking deal on mine with all documentation on purchase and install of the supercharger, so if you end up in a situation like that then it would be worth it.

[nycplumber]

Unless you're exclusively tracking it then the E9x isn't complete without a supercharger.

[Redd]

Having had my NA M3 for 8 years now, I recently drove my friends ESS 625 supercharged E93. The power is addictive. Feels like a big NA engine - same power/torque curve, just more meat everywhere. What I did not like was that u lose the NA induction noise, and somehow my NA M3 felt more 'frantic'. The supercharger - like a bigger engine - just felt more lazy, like I didn't have to work as hard to get the speed I wanted. With the NA S65 I was redlining every gear, frantically downshifting to get into the power band, but the supercharger didn't need all that. To me, NA feels more sports car, supercharger feels more GT.

That said, my friend has had his supercharger for a few years now and has had zero issues. There's quite a few supercharged M3s running around here and most of the mechs don't really see them having major issues. I kinda feel that supercharged S65's have a bit of a bad rep that isn't really deserved. I don't think they introduce any more major issues - when driven and maintained properly - than an NA S65.

[radiognome]

I did 3.9s 0-60 in my ESS-650 e93

[amrazM]

the only drawback is the increased rate of tire wear and fuel consumption

[kawstik]

My ESS 625 has 24,000 miles on it without a hiccup. Change the oil every 5k, make sure you have a spare belt on hand, and enjoy walking all over just about everything out there.

[kerrit]

Originally Posted by nycplumber

Unless you're exclusively tracking it then the E9x isn't complete without a supercharger.

This. As others said, power band just makes it feel like a larger NA engine. Still very responsive.

Have been supercharged since 2014, melted a piston a few years ago, and instead of going back to NA I doubled down on a boost build.

[Shrike360]

Originally Posted by Redd

Having had my NA M3 for 8 years now, I recently drove my friends ESS 625 supercharged E93. The power is addictive. Feels like a big NA engine - same power/torque curve, just more meat everywhere. What I did not like was that u lose the NA induction noise, and somehow my NA M3 felt more 'frantic'. The supercharger - like a bigger engine - just felt more lazy, like I didn't have to work as hard to get the speed I wanted. With the NA S65 I was redlining every gear, frantically downshifting to get into the power band, but the supercharger didn't need all that. To me, NA feels more sports car, supercharger feels more GT.

That said, my friend has had his supercharger for a few years now and has had zero issues. There's quite a few supercharged M3s running around here and most of the mechs don't really see them having major issues. I kinda feel that supercharged S65's have a bit of a bad rep that isn't really deserved. I don't think they introduce any more major issues - when driven and maintained properly - than an NA S65.

I wonder how much of the impact on feeling was coming from the convertible weight. After 5 years of an NA M3, the ESS G1 makes my E92 feels way more frantic and edgier to me. With modern tires, NA bolt on feels almost like you have AWD with how stable it is. The power from the SC makes the car much more fidgety and reactive to road surface imperfections/change. If going hard, it requires a lot more involvement and awareness, else you risk going backwards into a tree. I was recently surprised that my fresh PS4S' can actually hook in 1st gear on a 70 degree day. Won't do it when colder, though

There are definite trade offs. It's not as relaxed a drive, because you have to be thinking about the power. You can mitigate that by going up a gear, and taking advantage of the big bump in torque. But in lazier cruising situations at a higher gear, I do miss the induction note. You need a nice exhaust to make up for that loss. I don't actually miss the induction that much when going full throttle, because it's a much angrier note and has noises from the SC. Heat soak is also an issue at times. You probably lose 50-100 hp when IATs start going above ~115 F. I've also learned that my local drivers (Oregon) drive so slowly (think about 15mph under), that I actually struggle to get enough air through the heat exchanger to cool it down. The car also feels a bit absurd just driving around town, given the capability it has.

Now, if a stroker build were the same price as a supercharger, I'd go that route. The SC does change how the car feels, mostly for the better. If you've had an NA cars for a few years, I think it's worth it to switch things up and keep the car fresh.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by Shrike360

I wonder how much of the impact on feeling was coming from the convertible weight.

Good point! Now I need to find a supercharged E92 to drive.

[2008M36MT]

ESS no, barely felt a difference, though numbers clearly tell a different story. Harrop, fuck yes. It turns it into a completely different car, though the numbers would say ESS should feel faster.

[Shrike360]

Originally Posted by 2008M36MT

ESS no, barely felt a difference, though numbers clearly tell a different story. Harrop, fuck yes. It turns it into a completely different car, though the numbers would say ESS should feel faster.

? I'm surprised that you felt no difference, unless you didn't rev it out or there was a big boost leak. Got a ride in a member's car with a Harrop before I bought the ESS kit. The main reason I went ESS was because the whine was too annoying for me (the owner has since put dynamat on the airbox, which apparently really helped).

Comparing the stage 1 Harrop to the G1, the Harrop has the legs from 1k to 3k. From 3k to ~6k, I'd say they're pretty even. Then 6k on, the G1 is off like a rocket, while the Harrop felt like the power was flattening. If you can get the Stage 2 Harrop kit, then I think you have more performance everywhere.

If you're dailying the car (or can get the Stage 2) and don't mind spending the extra $6.5k, I'd go the Harrop with Dynamat in the airbox. If it's a weekend toy, I'd say ESS and spend the difference on suspension and brakes.

[rotomoto712]

I'll chime in to the OP's question with some of my own personal observations. I have had the Harrop on my E93 for a few months now, and with the weather finally warming up here I've had a few chances to really open it up. Initially, I was truly enamored by how much the car is transformed with the supercharger setup. But now...I still am but with a few caveats. Having two other modern turbocharged BMWs (G42 M240i, and F13 M6), I can say that if you are expected that level of seat of the pants power, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. I had trouble pulling away from the stock unmodified G42 M240i on the highway until the revs got higher into the band. What that means is that even with the Harrop, which certainly makes the engine feel torquier, you still have to be in the right gear at the right time to truly make this engine pull. Taking the Harrop to 150mph+, it really does fall on its face especially in comparison to the F13 M6 which feels like it will never stop pulling at these speeds. Maybe stage 2 would help here, but I can't say for sure. For higher speeds (i.e. on the autobahn) I think that this is where I think a centrifugal setup would truly be a better match to this engine.

Having said that is it worth the extra cost? Hell yes. I had no problem hanging with modified G80s and F80s at the Hockenheim ring recently. Though, I'm sure I had to work much harder than they did. If you temper your expectations, you will be hugely satisfied, but if you are expecting it to feel like a modern engine, you may be disappointed.

[Soden82]

Originally Posted by Shrike360

? I'm surprised that you felt no difference, unless you didn't rev it out or there was a big boost leak. Got a ride in a member's car with a Harrop before I bought the ESS kit. The main reason I went ESS was because the whine was too annoying for me (the owner has since put dynamat on the airbox, which apparently really helped).

Comparing the stage 1 Harrop to the G1, the Harrop has the legs from 1k to 3k. From 3k to ~6k, I'd say they're pretty even. Then 6k on, the G1 is off like a rocket, while the Harrop felt like the power was flattening. If you can get the Stage 2 Harrop kit, then I think you have more performance everywhere.

If you're dailying the car (or can get the Stage 2) and don't mind spending the extra $6.5k, I'd go the Harrop with Dynamat in the airbox. If it's a weekend toy, I'd say ESS and spend the difference on suspension and brakes.

The harrop starts now at about 15k, with the G1 hovering around half that price.

[chutak]

Originally Posted by Soden82

The harrop starts now at about 15k, with the G1 hovering around half that price.

How did Harrop get so expensive? I remember they were just shy of $10k a couple years ago. Can’t be all about inflation, the comparable ESS kit (VT625/G1) is pretty much the same price still.

[tbuck]

Originally Posted by chutak

How did Harrop get so expensive? I remember they were just shy of $10k a couple years ago. Can’t be all about inflation, the comparable ESS kit (VT625/G1) is pretty much the same price still.

I purchased a Harrop kit from Mike about 2 years ago and it was right about $12k then. Then if you add the cost of all the ancillary parts you should also replace while you are in there, and, God help you, if you have a shop install it you can add a few more thousand to the bottom line. And it really doesn't end there as I found other issues that needed to be addressed, such as DCT slip caused by so much power required a new flash, engine needing a follow-up tune, serious loss of traction needing tires more often....

[CamasM3e93]

Harrop is retailing for 15k???? One used Harrop kit for sale! Lol

All good comments. I’ve had both a stage 1 Harrop kit and briefly owned an ESS 550 kit, the one without a heat exchanger.

Drawbacks: gas, tires, ease of maintenance, whine for the Harrop which most view as a plus, subtraction of induction note, no going back.

Maybe the plenum of the 550 has a different design than the g1 and 625+ models because the thing I liked about the ess 550 was that it retained a nice induction note but I’m not a fan of the can-of-rocks sound that the Vortech blower makes at idle. The g1 is supposed to have addressed that.

I think the advantages are well spoken for already. I’ve kept pace with sport bikes on rural highways trying to gap me and more recently stayed on the bumper of an i4 m50 trying to dust me and boy that must have been demoralizing. I think the car is more challenging to drive overall but I don’t have to wring it out so much which is both a plus and a minus.

I posted this thread when I was in a decision phase comparing the hp and torque deltas of a few options. With a time machine and the benefit of hindsight I probably would have gone with a G power kit or stayed NA but like I said it’s not a bell you can unring. Even my Porsche feels slow comparatively.

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=27427974

[kerrit]

Those mentioning the car feels more 'frantic' supercharged - my thought there are that you absolutely need solid rear subframe bushings, poly diff bushings, good coilovers, and maybe even a brake upgrade to handle all of the power being pushed through the chassis.

Night and day difference for me in terms of confidence when driving the car harder, otherwise the balance of the car is upset with the wobbly rear end and suspension.

Downside here is that it's easily another $7-10k in mods when you factor in labor.

[IvanE92]

I say if one wanted the feel of a big V8 then choose the LS (or similar) platform. Keep the E9X unique for what it is!!! That NA S65 in a well balanced chassis. The induction noise is truly special. The high revs are a delight. And NA reliability is a beautiful thing. If you're missing torque it's probably best, easier, and cheaper to look elsewhere.

[acarr6]

Originally Posted by 2008M36MT

ESS no, barely felt a difference, though numbers clearly tell a different story. Harrop, fuck yes. It turns it into a completely different car, though the numbers would say ESS should feel faster.

Lol wut

[1SloeEm3]

Originally Posted by 2008M36MT

ESS no, barely felt a difference, though numbers clearly tell a different story. Harrop, fuck yes. It turns it into a completely different car, though the numbers would say ESS should feel faster.

Are you sure nothing was wrong with the ess car? I had the opposite experience. Harrop felt good for daily driving but fell on its face while racing in Mexico. On top of that something was wrong with the original tune which was causing the dct to slip. Roll race from 40-150 I put about 4-5 cars on it with my 8 psi ess 625 kit

[2008M36MT]

Originally Posted by 1SloeEm3

Are you sure nothing was wrong with the ess car? I had the opposite experience. Harrop felt good for daily driving but fell on its face while racing in Mexico. On top of that something was wrong with the original tune which was causing the dct to slip. Roll race from 40-150 I put about 4-5 cars on it with my 8 psi ess 625 kit

I’m being facetious, certainly the ESS car felt faster than stock, but the Harrop changed the characteristics of the car completely. Even if a Harrop isn’t faster in fact, it’s faster in feeling. But that’s just top end. But with a Harrop kit you could actually punch the car from 4K rpm and felt a different animal to redline. Plus that sound is incredible. It doesn’t sound like a much of metal pieces rubbing together that comes from the ESS. I had the kits weeks apart. I bought the Harrop when it was $10K. Now, you either have to be super wealthy or out of your mind to spend $15K to make your 10-15 year old car faster. I won’t buy an ESS kit again either since it doesnt provide the thrill that the Harrop does. I’m sticking with boltons on this M3.
I did a fair share of racing the Chula Juana district of Mexico myself.