Lexus RC-F confirmed 480hp 12.3:1 compression, full pics and Motertrend write up

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

3550, 3590, we're splitting hairs. This does not make any measurable difference in performance. BMW has said 80 kg lighter than a similarly equipped E92 M3 which is 3704 lb (which is a nicely optioned car). That, less 80 kg, is about 3530. 3550 is roughly in the middle of that range. It is not going to have second digit of 4 nor will it have a second digit of 6. The rest is a bit academic.

Now that being said, if you are personally svelte, get no options on your car and get the CSiC brakes, the second digit will most likely dip down to 4.

Swamp, as an observation, that 3704-pound published weight (by BMWNA) for the E92 just has to include every conceivable option, including sunroof and DCT.

Second, and the major related point: The lightest E92 M3 Car & Driver ever tested was the last one, which weighed 3552 pounds with 6-speed. This weight is with all fluids topped off, and no driver or luggage, as per SAE spec for curb weight.

How do I know this was as per SAE spec? I happen to know the spec from way back when I was collaborating on a performance analysis tool, and from time to time, Car & Driver has published their standards for such things, including standards for performance testing (i.e. - no powershifting, correcting for standard day conditions, etc.).

The big four magazines, plus Autoweek, all weigh their test cars the same way as far as I know, meaning full of fuel and fluids, but no driver or luggage. I believe Road and Track used to weigh their test cars with a half tank of fuel, but that was a long, long time ago. I believe they also weigh the car with and without driver, in order to demonstrate any weight shift - but again, the key point is that they publish SAE weight without driver.

So, I believe you are mistaken in your belief that U.S. magazines weigh their test cars with driver.

Bruce

PS - I am on record saying I believe the new M4 will come in at just over 3400 pounds at the curb, full of fuel and fluids but sans driver and luggage. Edit: With six-speed.

Maybe we should start a pool?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Swamp, as an observation, that 3704-pound published weight (by BMWNA) for the E92 just has to include every conceivable option, including sunroof and DCT.

I disagree. My E92 M3 M-DCT "medium optioned" (no alarm, no high end stereo (amp!), no moon roof, no full leather, no sunshades) is about 3775 with a full tank and driver, by corner weighing with a very good scale (link). This is way more than BMWs spec!

IIRC the rule (and perhaps this is EU only) is that the quoted weight must include options that are (expected) to be ordered on at least some high percentage of all cars (maybe the number is 33%).

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Second, and the major related point: The lightest E92 M3 Car & Driver ever tested was the last one, which weighed 3552 pounds with 6-speed. This weight is with all fluids topped off, and no driver or luggage, as per SAE spec for curb weight.

Nothing inconsistent with anything I've said, add 75 kg (68 for driver and 7 for cargo) and viola 3717 lb. Add 20 kg for M-DCT and that's very close to my car.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

The big four magazines, plus Autoweek, all weigh their test cars the same way as far as I know, meaning full of fuel and fluids, but no driver or luggage. I believe Road and Track used to weigh their test cars with a half tank of fuel, but that was a long, long time ago. I believe they also weigh the car with and without driver, in order to demonstrate any weight shift - but again, the key point is that they publish SAE weight without driver.

Given the above, it appears that the highest number from the magazines (simply restating BMWs 3704 number) clearly includes a driver. However, the lower numbers could be very well optioned cars without a driver and topped off with fuel. However, this also gives us ~3840 lb M3, which would require a moonroof and just about every other option of course including M-DCT... Moonroofs in coupes were pretty well non existent so that the CF roof could be shown off.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I am on record saying I believe the new M4 will come in at just over 3400 pounds at the curb, full of fuel and fluids but sans driver and luggage. Edit: With six-speed.

Maybe we should start a pool?

That is close to where I think it will be too, about 3550 with driver. My official guess for the typical 6MT though would be just a bit lower, low 3500s. Why do I sense you believe I feel something substantially different? I just finished writing exactly this just above. Now that being said this post seems to indicate that the second digit will be a 4 for the 6MT M4. Perhaps a stripper will but I doubt most real as ordered US cars will have the "magic" second digit being a 4.

Also, for completeness the 20 kg difference between the M-DCT and 6MT in the E9X is expected to widen to 32 kg so that throws some minor wrenches in these calculations. Reference post #25 here.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I disagree. My E92 M3 M-DCT "medium optioned" (no alarm, no high end stereo (amp!), no moon roof, no full leather, no sunshades) is about 3775 with a full tank and driver, by corner weighing with a very good scale (link). This is way more than BMWs spec!

You are using circular logic here. I am refuting/disagreeing with your point that U.S. magazines weigh their test vehicles with driver

Originally Posted by swamp2

...Nothing inconsistent with anything I've said, add 75 kg (68 for driver and 7 for cargo) and viola 3717 lb. Add 20 kg for M-DCT and that's very close to my car.

What? You've said that U.S. magazines weigh their test cars with driver, and I am refuting your point.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Given the above, it appears that the highest number from the magazines (simply restating BMWs 3704 number) clearly includes a driver. However, the lower numbers could be very well optioned cars without a driver and topped off with fuel. However, this also gives us ~3840 lb M3, which would require a moonroof and just about every other option of course including M-DCT... Moonroofs in coupes were pretty well non existent so that the CF roof could be shown off...

In addition to the last C & D M3 test of a stripper (except with Competition Package) at 3552 pounds, they previously tested another 6-speed car at 3560 pounds.

Road & Track tested an automatic which weighed in at 3602 pounds.
Motor Trend tested a 6-speed car at 3544 pounds.
Automobile tested an automatic at 3576 pounds.

Obviously, none of these weights are with driver. Am I missing something here?

As for BMW's stated U.S. weight of 3704 pounds, I (re)assert that the car they weighed had pretty much every option, including the auto and sunroof.
Again, this is without driver. Your car coming in at 3775 pounds with you aboard is evidence on my side, not yours.

Bruce

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

You are using circular logic here. I am refuting/disagreeing with your point that U.S. magazines weigh their test vehicles with driver

It appears I did not make it clear but I changed my prior claim/position here about what the magazines are doing.

My point on "no disagreement" was on the weight of the new car, not the prior one.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

As for BMW's stated U.S. weight of 3704 pounds, I (re)assert that the car they weighed had pretty much every option, including the auto and sunroof.
Again, this is without driver. Your car coming in at 3775 pounds with you aboard is evidence on my side, not yours.

Unfortunately US standards don't appear quite as rigid as the EU ones so there can be some confusion.

The 3704 lb figure for the E92 M3 with M-DCT in North America is officially, as per BMW documentation the "Unladen" weight. Since then BMW NA have switched to "Curb weight". For the EU 1675 kg is the E92 M-DCT "EU Curb weight" but 1700 kg is the "Unladen to EU". Both EU weights absolutely include driver and 90% fuel. Those figures in lb are 3692 and 3747 lb. One is obviously quite close and a bit under the 3704 number and the other not so close and above it. In this post a member quite familiar with EU regulations implies that the 3704 lb figure does include driver but might include 100% fuel rather than 90%.

Assuming 3704 is a fully optioned M-DCT car with no driver we then get to a whopping 3869 lb car with driver (75 kg or 68+7 added). I don't quite see how that can correspond to either of the EU figures of 3692 lb or 3747 lb (again both with driver). 120 - 177 lb in options alone? I see only a small possibility that this difference would be made up in options alone. Really quick/crude; sunroof vs. CF roof is about 50lb, nice stereo amp is 10lb, extra leather 5 lb, alarm, 5 lb, window shades 10 lb, 90% fuel vs. 100%, 10 lb, that's about 90 lb.

Well, I'm learning something. I always assumed 3704 lb was absolutely with driver. That now is not so certain and my own personal original data does not really support this claim either.

[swamp2]

I am continuing the weight discussion here. There a user added the detail that in Canada the official weight for an M-DCT car WITH driver is 1680 kg which is precisely 3704 lb. The Canadian brochure states the exact weight methodology, which is identical to the EU version. (90% gas, 68kg driver, 7kg of luggage).

I don't see why the US spec would be different...

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I am continuing the weight discussion here. There a user added the detail that in Canada the official weight for an M-DCT car WITH driver is 1680 kg which is precisely 3704 lb. The Canadian brochure states the exact weight methodology, which is identical to the EU version. (90% gas, 68kg driver, 7kg of luggage).

I don't see why the US spec would be different...

If indeed 3704lbs is DCT with driver, then a manual without driver is easily under 3500lbs, then it would make a lot of sense that a stripped manual M4 would weight around 3300lbs! Just sayin!

[dparm]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I don't see why the US spec would be different...

There are slight differences due to safety considerations and things like lighting and license plates.

[swamp2]

^ And different rules and regs on how options are handled. I'm not looking for down to the pounds on anything but I'm now uncertain about the 3704 being with driver when previously I was not.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

If indeed 3704lbs is DCT with driver, then a manual without driver is easily under 3500lbs, then it would make a lot of sense that a stripped manual M4 would weight around 3300lbs! Just sayin!

"80 kg lighter" than a similarly equipped car so yes, close to 3300 but more like 3325, and yes, a total stripper, with no driver, F82, MT, CF roof is probably right around that. One of my big points about weights is that they need to be apples to apples and folks saying 3700 for E92 and 3300 for F82 are not anywhere close to apples to apples in that comparison.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

"80 kg lighter" than a similarly equipped car so yes, close to 3300 but more like 3325, and yes, a total stripper, with no driver, F82, MT, CF roof is probably right around that. One of my big points about weights is that they need to be apples to apples and folks saying 3700 for E92 and 3300 for F82 are not anywhere close to apples to apples in that comparison.

yeah but no one say 3700lbs for a e92!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

yeah but no one say 3700lbs for a e92!

What? It is (was) all over this forum when BMW announced "less than 1500 kg". 3700 lb M3 w/ M-DCT vs. a 3300 lb F82...

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

What? It is (was) all over this forum when BMW announced "less than 1500 kg". 3700 lb M3 w/ M-DCT vs. a 3300 lb F82...

Don't remember seeing anyone use this number except you but I could be wrong!

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by swamp2

"80 kg lighter" than a similarly equipped car so yes, close to 3300 but more like 3325, and yes, a total stripper, with no driver, F82, MT, CF roof is probably right around that. One of my big points about weights is that they need to be apples to apples and folks saying 3700 for E92 and 3300 for F82 are not anywhere close to apples to apples in that comparison.

Agree. My predictions are

Stripped e9x is about 3500 vs 3300-3330 for f8x

Loaded e9x is 3700 vs about 3550ish for f8x

[MrStinky]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I am continuing the weight discussion here. There a user added the detail that in Canada the official weight for an M-DCT car WITH driver is 1680 kg which is precisely 3704 lb. The Canadian brochure states the exact weight methodology, which is identical to the EU version. (90% gas, 68kg driver, 7kg of luggage).

I don't see why the US spec would be different...

What are you debating? I have seen several ibdepant weights plus car and driverand e92 mM3 with carbon roof and 6 speed is 3560. With dct its 3580.

What are you debating? Go read and search. One gut weighed a c63 at same scale and c 63 was 4000 plus pounds. M3 450 pounds lighter. Makes up for 50 HP disadvantage. Really not sure what your debating

[MrStinky]

Originally Posted by MrStinky

What are you debating? I have seen several ibdepant weights plus car and driverand e92 mM3 with carbon roof and 6 speed is 3560. With dct its 3580.

What are you debating? Go read and search. One gut weighed a c63 at same scale and c 63 was 4000 plus pounds. M3 450 pounds lighter. Makes up for 50 HP disadvantage. Really not sure what your debating

The f80 will be 130-150 pounds lighter. Almost exact weight of e46

[The Nash]

Originally Posted by MrStinky

What are you debating? I have seen several ibdepant weights plus car and driverand e92 mM3 with carbon roof and 6 speed is 3560. With dct its 3580.

What are you debating? Go read and search. One gut weighed a c63 at same scale and c 63 was 4000 plus pounds. M3 450 pounds lighter. Makes up for 50 HP disadvantage. Really not sure what your debating

So just to be clear, you want to know what he's debating?

Also what is ibdepant?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by MrStinky

What are you debating? I have seen several ibdepant weights plus car and driverand e92 mM3 with carbon roof and 6 speed is 3560. With dct its 3580.

What are you debating? Go read and search. One gut weighed a c63 at same scale and c 63 was 4000 plus pounds. M3 450 pounds lighter. Makes up for 50 HP disadvantage. Really not sure what your debating

Should be painfully obvious, just read the last few pages of this thread. Me and a few others were talking about E92 M3 weight and I said 3704 includes driver they said not. We also discussed if US magazines report vehicle weights with or without driver.

[8k3]

Is that if with a driver who had a good breakfast or fasted for 24h? Details are important. LOL. Sorry carry on. Just think it's so interesting how they claimed the F80 is going to be incredibly light and low and behold it really isn't much. Guess we shall see for sure soon enough

[hellrotm]

Basically all you need to know is they said 80kg less than E92. So what ever you think an E92 M3 weighs, subtract 176 lbs.

[MrStinky]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Should be painfully obvious, just read the last few pages of this thread. Me and a few others were talking about E92 M3 weight and I said 3704 includes driver they said not. We also discussed if US magazines report vehicle weights with or without driver.

I was asking in a way meaning why are you debating this when the answer is clear. The car is 3700 with driver, luggage and 5 gallons. That's EU curb or unladen. US curb is 3560 or so as measured with no driver or luggage.

Plenty of sources for true weighed on scales and with that you obviously know 3700 includes driver and luggage given the car weighs 3550 on scales.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by MrStinky

I was asking in a way meaning why are you debating this when the answer is clear. The car is 3700 with driver, luggage and 5 gallons. That's EU curb or unladen. US curb is 3560 or so as measured with no driver or luggage.

Plenty of sources for true weighed on scales and with that you obviously know 3700 includes driver and luggage given the car weighs 3550 on scales.

There is some reasonable data just prior in this thread that indicates otherwise. You really must not be following the thread. Not a big deal but you look a bit clueless with the particular questions you are asking and points you bring up.

[dstange226]

As an owner of a 2008 ISF and a 2011 e93 M3 I will say one thing. I would never own a BMW out of warranty. Lexus is another story. This 3900 lb beast will compete with the M3 and will stand out in a crowd.