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      06-23-2012, 02:48 PM   #1
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Feel guilting for modding the car to get faster times?

So this has been on the back of my mind for awhile now. Everyone knows the best mod to go faster is to become a better driver. From what I've seen the best stock E9x M3 time at Laguna Seca is around 1:42-43. (You all probably know the fastest stock M3 time for your local track as well.) Right now I have an Akrapovic Evo with ESS software, KW V3' and Pilot Sport Cup tires. I'm running 1:48 at the track. Obviously I have lots of improvement to make, but even when I do eventually get to the low to mid :40's I feel like I'm cheating because of the mods. Any of you feel the same? I know there are some mods that are more for safety (but also help provide better performance) like upgrading brake components, but I'm talking about mods like suspension, power mods, aero, tires, and weightloss.

So my point of this thread is, do you think it's feasible to be able to get close to the stock record times while being stock or is being able to drive that well just a pipe dream for most of us? Or maybe it's more about not risking driving the car at 10/10 to get that kind of time? I'm just curious about what some of you more experienced guys think about the whole subject of modding the car vs improving yourself as a driver.

I love modding my car and it makes it so much more fun to drive, but I also feel like with each mod I add, I'm raising the bar for the time I expect myself to be able to get. I want faster lap times because I'm becoming a better driver, not because I'm making the car faster. Thoughts?
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      06-23-2012, 08:53 PM   #2
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While it's probably a laudable goal to shoot for a time close to the local stock track record in a fairly stock car, there's always going to be someone else who comes along with an even faster time.

Those of us who track get better with experience and some get pretty good, but hardly any of us will ever develop the speed of a Leh Keen or a Michael Marsal, or even the speed of a top-level club racer. So we should just enjoy the track for what it is--a challenging, fun learning experience.

Enjoy your mods and don't feel guilty. Maybe do one at a time so you can appreciate the difference each makes. And with our cars, you probably get more utility out of suspension and brake upgrades than power increases.
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      06-23-2012, 08:58 PM   #3
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You are definitely on to something. How many people can truly drive their car as fast as it can go? But you should NOT feel guilty because honestly, the M3 itself is already such a high starting point. If you wanted to do it right you would need to sell that sucker and go buy a miata or an s2000. If your experience is better because of what you have done to the car then that's all you need. If your mods make you more comfortable pushing the car than that's worth something as well.

If you want to take some of the ability away, back off on the tires. That is where people SHOULD feel guilty. Most people go to r-comps way too soon, until your car on street tires is your b*tch than stick w/ those cheap V12's.
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Last edited by Sauce; 06-26-2012 at 11:20 AM..
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      06-23-2012, 09:25 PM   #4
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I think you are overthinking... Just have fun ... Really
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      06-24-2012, 07:39 AM   #5
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I have modded the car and improved the driver over the past almost 4 years. My car is so composed with my suspension that I couldn't see driving a stock car on the track. And my BBK is a huge advantage on the track as well.

Only recently did I purchase an Aim Solo timer and therein lies the issue. Once you start timing it can become an obsession. I notice now if I don't get some unobstructed laps I'm disappointed. I'm going to try to not be so into the timing issue in the future. We'll see how that works out.
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      06-24-2012, 09:55 AM   #6
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IMO, modding and lap times should be seen as two very distinct passions (unless you are a pro racing team that is ).

I used to be a mod junkie myself and I had tremendous fun doing it. However, modding can quickly get very expensive. Every time you change something on the car, the next weak link pops out, and you need to keep on modding. As I said, it can be a lot fun until you reach the point where you start loosing reliability .

After 18 years of tracking, I now consider that fast laps should be more focused around the driver. I keep on learning everytime I am at the track. Pro coaching is a good option. Once you have acquired enough experience, data loggers are also a great tool to improve yourself. You can compare your sector times and speed with your buddies and try to improve the next time out. For example, if one of your buddies is faster than you over a given sector, ask him to ride with you, he might be able to give you some pointers. By learning from each other, we can all improve . I know it can become frustrating once you reach a plateau, but be patient a keep at it, you will have a brakethrough eventually.

My take: if modding makes you happy, than by all means keep on modding. If you want to be faster, work on your driving skills.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-24-2012 at 10:14 AM..
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      06-24-2012, 09:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauce View Post
You are definitely on to something. How many people can truly drive their car as fast as it can go? But you should NOT feel guilty because honestly, the M3 itself is already such a high starting point. If you wanted to do it right you would need to sell that sucker and go buy a miata or an s2000. If your experience is better because of what you have done to the car then that's all you need. If your mods make you more comfortable pushing the car than that's worth something as well.

If you want to take some of the ability away, back off on the tires. That is where people SHOULD feel guilty. Most people go to r-comps way too soon, until your car on street tires your b*tch than stick w/ those cheap V12's.
I don't know exactly what you said at the end but I agree with the tires point in general. Go to street rubber and practice going faster. I think it's more fun to drive the car as fast as possible vs chasing a number. Besides, sticky tires just wear you and the car out sooner. I've never understood people who run really sticky tires at HPDE...not DOT tires, but slicks and such.
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      06-24-2012, 10:42 AM   #8
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Don't get me wrong, I'm having tons of fun at the track. I'm just a very competitive person and at the track I'm competitive with myself. Lap times are a quantitative way of measuring my skill and improvements as a driver so that's what drives me. I just feel like the mods diminish the value of my times a bit especially when comparing times with other M3 drivers who may be closer to stock.
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      06-24-2012, 10:53 AM   #9
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I've been thinking the same thing, especiallys after going with wider tires and kws. I also agree every mod raises the bar. However, I accept that I'll never be a professsional driver and think I should just enjoy it. Customizing cars was something that came first for me and I just can't give up. The research involved and tailoring a car to yourself is half the fun for me.
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      06-24-2012, 02:25 PM   #10
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Its interesting, as I've actually been thinking about this very topic. A coworker asked about what causes a difference in lap times when the cars are the same model.

The "stock M3" time of1:42.9 vs. my best 1:48.7ish semi-modded, has many factors. The packaging of the car also could be a factor, not sure if its a stripped car with no options other than DCT/comp pkg or are they a similar fully loaded model as well as various traction control settings. I know some of the best times for a car were done during the various magazine testing, the articles even state that some makes have engineers prepping the car. We don't usually have that level of expertise assisting us.

Other factors, in the case of some the more common mods (BBK & tires) don't play as high of a role during their testing/drives IMHO. Its usually a few hot laps, assuming what we see on the various TV shows are true (5th/Top Gear). I have BBK and a square set up yet (Mich PSS instead of PS2). My BBK was due to OEM pad/rotor wear, the square setup was s longevity as well.

I do time just as a measure various lines, tire pressures etc. Overall it boils down to driver skill/experience. I think in the end as long as you work towards bettering your skill and modding what is necessary to keep that possible, you're fine. I personally plan to stay away from R-compounds, engine power upgrades and maybe even suspension changes until I can get closer to that 1:42.9 number. I've been contemplating some of the race schools and perhaps working on my own skills.
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      06-24-2012, 02:47 PM   #11
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I think those of you who are really interested in going faster should have another (faster) driver you trust drive your car. With you in it timing them, or DAQ so you can overlay your info.

For those who haven't seen that done...here's an example.

From some friends:

Paul vs Paul vs Eric. My best from this weekend in Blue 1:25.012 , my best from April Summit in Black 1:26.014 and Eric in my car from April Summit in Red 1:24.054



You can really see how a different driver can drive the same car differently.
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      06-24-2012, 02:51 PM   #12
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The way I look at this is you have to do certain mods, like brakes and tires. But pick something, and stick with it. If you keep getting stickier and stickier tire, you won't know if you're improving.

Also, THE best way to improve is to do track days at wet. Every mistake you make will be amplified. I have done couple rainy days in one of our local tracks, and I can tell the difference between myself and who haven't done any.
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      06-24-2012, 04:18 PM   #13
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I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Truth is it is going be very tough -if ever possible- for us mere HPDE peasants to match the lap times of pro drivers.

It shouldn't stop you from modding. IMHO at the very least the car needs suspension, brakes and tires.

Not so much for lap times but just so that you can enjoy the car lap after lap without eating the outer shoulder of your tires or fading the brakes.

Have fun with your track buddies and compare lap times with them instead
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      06-24-2012, 04:23 PM   #14
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Also keep in mind it can be difficult to replicate a certain lap time since all things are rarely ever equal.

For one, it was REALLY hot when we were there. Heat kills lap times. You might very well shave 3 seconds off on your first session on a 60 deg. day.
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      06-24-2012, 08:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
Also keep in mind it can be difficult to replicate a certain lap time since all things are rarely ever equal.

For one, it was REALLY hot when we were there. Heat kills lap times. You might very well shave 3 seconds off on your first session on a 60 deg. day.
So true. I ran a 1:45.86 in March at Laguna Seca in 50-degree weather on RS3s and stock suspension. Last Sunday my best effort was a 1:46.2 on NT-01s and a brand new suspension in 80-degree weather.

Last edited by yyoo; 06-24-2012 at 08:58 PM..
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      06-24-2012, 09:09 PM   #16
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Mods are two-edged swords. They don't always make you go faster, particularly if you radically change the handling characteristics of your car and you're not ready for it. However, that's also a part of the challenge and the fun...to dial the car in and to adapt your own style to the car's characteristics.

When I started doing HPDEs over ten years ago I was an extreme "don't mod the car" kind of guy, doing nothing but brake fluid for the first 18 track days, and my first mod thereafter being more aggressive street pads. I think in some ways that held back my development as a driver. I became really used to understeer and the slow response of my suspension. I think I would be a better driver today if I had modded my car to be neutral or a bit oversteery from the start. However, that's not without its risks, particularly for beginners.

Last edited by yyoo; 06-25-2012 at 03:10 AM..
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      06-25-2012, 10:09 PM   #17
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Don't feel too bad. I agree with the above poster that said modding and getting quicker are separate things. As long as the mod doesn't hurt the learning curve dramatically, i.e. slicks, there's no problem that I see. Going to the track for me is about fun, and it is more fun to drive a faster, better, track car (up to a point I suppose).

And there are people running full blown racecars with little experience too, so no matter what you do you can't be the only guy with that level of mods for your experience level. I hear you on the comparing lap times stuff though, it does make it difficult to compare, if that matters.
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      06-25-2012, 10:49 PM   #18
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Do not feel bad, because in racing how deep your pockets has a lot to do with who ever is doing the best times. I've learned this the hard way

In Sebring, people say below 2:30 is a reputable time. I was doing 2:24.8 the last time I was there, my car only had Toyo RA1 (-2 seconds per lap) and solid rose joints (-1 to -1.5 seconds per lap), so I was running good times. Still I was getting sh!t from people.

I even hired a pro driver to help me out, and he said I should be racing in amateur division. Which is a good sign.

It is possible to get close to record times, but at what cost? When I did a cost analysis I realized it cost me about $1k per track day with the GT3 not counting the wear and replacement on the engine and the transmission. Hence the reason for me to quit and sell the car.

There are two factors to becoming a faster driver:
-Natural, God given talent
-Seat time

The more talent you have, the quicker your lap times will drop. More seat time will allow you to become more comfortable with your car, approach it's limits, learn where the car understeers and oversteers. We all make mistakes, go off the track, spin, don't get discouraged; but learn from them! Listen to your instructors, most of them have more experience and know more.

I have done 40 DE days, hired a coach for helping me lower my lap times who at the end of the day said I had talent and suggested I get into amateur racing. I wish I could but I don't have the budget

Anyways, there are guys that I know with deeper pockets, better cars, more experience and more cheater parts who are running better times. There's nothing I can do about that. It's a bottomless pit.

Because of the length of the track, I'd say your tires, suspension and brakes give you an advantage of more or less about 4 secs over a stock car (-1 to -1.5 secs for tires, -2 secs for suspension, -1 secs for the brakes). Keep that in mind and aim higher
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      06-26-2012, 12:46 AM   #19
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I love the feeling when my next mod helps me to drop times, I do one thing at a time and every mod thus far has made my car better on the track. What s the point of struggling with say grip when all power the car has to offer goes to waste when coming out of the corners with some shitty tires. Or why not to utilize all grip and life a particular tire has to offer by running stock suspension and stock alignment. Oveeheating stock brake pads and stock brake fluid is just plain silly.

As long as the mod makes sense and results in a better composed car for track, i dont see why one should have hard feelings. It is no cheating, i feel like modding your car and "modding" yourself by learning are two different things that go along with each other to produce better times.

I am like you, time motivates me the most. I dont go out there for quantity, if I post great times I feel good about myself and my car.
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      06-26-2012, 01:10 AM   #20
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There are many reasons for modding your car, including but not limited to: performance, longevity, safety, vanity, or even just an opportunistic opportunity (e.g. a deal that was just too good to say no to at the time). As long as you enjoy the modding it should be all good.

Regardless of how the car is set-up, I think a safe goal should be to learn how to drive the car- first at your limit, and then at the car's performance limit (in an appropriate setting like HDPE).

Some mods may make this easier or harder to achieve this along the way, but seat time and humility will usually get you there. For example, tracking a loosely sprung, underpowered car will likely force you learn about weight transfer effects faster than driving a tight, light, stiff, powerful monster. Doesn't mean you can't learn in a Cup car, just that its threshold for feedback is higher vs. a 2002. That said, just because you can wring out the 2002 consistently lap after lap, doesn't mean you can replicate that immediately on a Cup car.

Timing yourself for the purpose of measuring your performance is really only relevant once you are driving the car safely at its limit consistently around the racetrack. I understand that different people go to the racetrack for different reasons, but in the HDPE setting learning is generally everyone's primary motivation and timing equipment is a very advanced tool. I've seen relative noobies bring a hot racecar to the track to prep for racing and compare lap times...but while driving the thing superfast, they also blow through flag after flag as they experience dangerous tunnel vision associated with driving too fast/too soon for everone's comfort. You could argue that the timer enables an accelerated learning experience, but I don't think this outweighs the safety compromise of missing flags in any setting.

One of the most interesting skills I have seen on track was seeing how an advanced driver explores and approaches the limit of a new-to-them car. A club racer once took me for a ride in my car and gradually pushed faster and deeper into the corners until the limits of the car were reached, and then he worked to consistently push to just inside those limits lap after lap until the session was complete. Sounds a lot easier then it was, especially with traffic.

HTH.
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      06-27-2012, 09:38 PM   #21
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Mods or no mods, I'm just in it for fun.

Measuring my times is a useful for the insight into the progression of my skills. Comparing them to others' is useful as a way to have some idea how much more I might improve. That's really the only reason I care about others' times, though.

I'll never be one of the best amateur drivers, and the pros are on a completely different level. So I just try to have fun and seek new experiences.
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      07-01-2012, 02:25 PM   #22
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No. I think it puts more pressure on you though...from yourself.
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