Lightning Lap: M3 runs faster than Cayman S and 911 Carrera S

[330CIZHP]

Despite still having issues with M-DCT (last year DCT refusal to downshift under heavy braking cost a few tenths) and the Michelin Cup tires not making much of an improvement over PS2 tires, M3 still beat, Nismo 370Z, Cayman S and 911 S in lap times:

"Although the hot-rod Bimmer is always an impressive ride, with decidedly sports-car-like agility in a class of mostly heavyweight bruisers, the M3’s lap time improved by just 0.2 second. As we found with our recently concluded long-term M3, the Sport Cup + tires don’t seem to shave a whole lot off lap times, and the dual-clutch gearbox was still occasionally reluctant to grant downshifts under braking. So drivers had to keep an eye on the dash display—never a good thing for lap times—to verify which gear was in play."



http://www.caranddriver.com/features...3a05.4_page_13

[brava09]

Did you have any doubts?

M3 is such a great car.


They say the 911 S is difficult to drive at the limit...probably a pro driver will get a better time with the 911S than with the M3.

[ersin]

I'm not sure I believe it. The 911 has PDK (it looks like it from the pictures) -- doubly hard to believe. But, then, the times are very close and certain courses tend to favor certain vehicle characteristics. So, maybe it's not so unbelievable.

[footie]

Considering the Cayman S is down 100hp and has much less PTW than either the 997 or the M3 I think it was the best car of the three on the day. Also it didn't state whether it was equipped with the LSD, if the case is that is didn't then this would improve it's lap time even further.

[TLud]

I thought it was fairly stupid to put the M3 in the LL2 class. Its base price missed the cutoff by a measly $25, and if you check any option boxes, it's over the threshold. Plus, the cars it's actually competing against in the marketplace are all in the LL3 class.

I'm a big proponent of the Cayman S, and I'd love to have one in my garage, but the constant "what if" and giving it credit for something it doesn't have is getting a little old. The Cayman S does not have the extra 30+ hp it needs and the proposition that such a hypothetical Cayman could beat the M3 is precisely that...hypothetical. Until then, the M3 is just as good, if not a better, performer on the track as the Cayman S. Which is more fun is entirely subjective, and I personally would have a difficult time choosing.

[330CIZHP]

Agreed. This whole "what if" nonsense is getting old. "What if the Cayman had an additional 50 HP to make it have equal power-to-weight compared to M3". That is completely rubbish!

It is just like an M3 owner saying, "what if M3 lost 200 - 250 lbs, it would completely decimate both the Cayman S and Carrera S much worse than it did in the test", "what if M3 was not having the M-DCT refusing to downshift under heavy braking and was 6 speed manual instead" or "what if M3 lost two seats in the back and became a two-seater car".

Originally Posted by TLud

I thought it was fairly stupid to put the M3 in the LL2 class. Its base price missed the cutoff by a measly $25, and if you check any option boxes, it's over the threshold. Plus, the cars it's actually competing against in the marketplace are all in the LL3 class.

I'm a big proponent of the Cayman S, and I'd love to have one in my garage, but the constant "what if" and giving it credit for something it doesn't have is getting a little old. The Cayman S does not have the extra 30+ hp it needs and the proposition that such a hypothetical Cayman could beat the M3 is precisely that...hypothetical. Until then, the M3 is just as good, if not a better, performer on the track as the Cayman S. Which is more fun is entirely subjective, and I personally would have a difficult time choosing.

[CSanto]

The ZR1 stomped the competition. Except for the X-bow (whatever that is)

[footie]

Both you TLud and 330CIZHP are quite right, the 'what if' is constantly added by people like me but as the LSD is an option readily available then it's mention was a valid one. As for the 'what if' the Cayman had an extra 30~50hp or the M3 being lighter wasn't what I was meaning by my post, only that I was highlighting the fact that given it's obvious lack of power and poorer power to weight but all but matched the M3.

You could easily turn this round by saying something like, 'look at the M3, it beat probably two of the best sportscars available at present and is yet affordable and practical as well'.

What this really showed is that the easiest cars to drive producing the better times and showed that unless in the right hands the 997 isn't the quickest.

[M3V8Driver]

When I read that article, I was proud to be an M3 owner. I was also proud to have been turning similar lap times on the exact same course/configuration in a bone stock (tires and all) '08 E92 DCT... with traffic!

Without traffic, I was besting their times

Wonder how much I would have beat C&D if I were running on the same Michelin Cup tires as they were?

[footie]

Sorry to come over all PRO-AUDI here

But did any of you notice the 3:08.4 time set by the TT-S, 265hp and hauling 1490kg. Very impressive figures for what is a fwd bias AWD car. Also a piss poor showing by the 370Z Nismo, I wonder what happened there?

[M3V8Driver]

Originally Posted by shift@red

The cayman doesnt need a better or equal power to weight to keep up with the m3. Fact is, even with the disadvantage in power to weight, the cayman S is neck and neck with the more powerful M3 on the track. So the cayman S at a power to weight of 9.375 (3000 lbs/320 hp) is keeping pace with a car with a power to weight of 8.795 (3650 lbs/415 hp). Pretty damn good for an entry level car.
Losing 250-300 lbs in the M3 is much harder than adding HP in a cayman. Fact remains, Porsche HOLDS THE CAR BACK ON PURPOSE. So Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car...hmm. If you want to say 'lets see what the m3 does with 300 lbs less (with every other car staying the same of course)"...Im going to say why dont we see how badly the Cayman S would MURDER and UTTERLY EMBARASS the M3 (and every other car) with the 997S engine... what about if it had the 997.2 GT3 engine, not a single car out there would touch it.
The M3 barely beat a 997S that wasnt being driven at nearly full potential, and certainly not as the same amount the M3 was. I would hardly call a .2 and .4 difference decimating any car. Fact is, on 99.9% of tracks, the 997S IS faster, no question about it. Go look at fastest laps, the facts lie in the numbers, and the 997S holds a 1-2 second advantage on nearly every track on there (except the VIR test).

Neither the Cayman nor the 997 have real rear seats that will fit most adults, nor do they come in 4-door versions. They are a whole different ball of wax, and shouldn't even be compared to the M3. The fact that stock vs. stock, their performance is even comparable is quite a feat on the M3's part. 'nuff said

[lucid]

Originally Posted by M3V8Driver

When I read that article, I was proud to be an M3 owner. I was also proud to have been turning similar lap times on the exact same course/configuration in a bone stock (tires and all) '08 E92 DCT... with traffic!

Without traffic, I was besting their times

Wonder how much I would have beat C&D if I were running on the same Michelin Cup tires as they were?

I've tracked the M3 with both PS2 and PSC+ tires (note that the PSC+ are not the regular PSC tires). PSC+ have slightly more initial bite, but that's not their main advantage over the PS2s. They simply resist overheating better, so they are more consistent. My guess is that you'd be 0.25-0.50 seconds faster per minute--assuming the comparison is between tires that are not overheated. I believe this is consistent with what some magazines have reported.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by shift@red

The cayman doesnt need a better or equal power to weight to keep up with the m3. Fact is, even with a disadvantage in power to weight, the cayman S is neck and neck with the more powerful M3 on the track. So the cayman S at a power to weight of 9.375 (3000 lbs/320 hp) is keeping pace with a car with a power to weight of 8.795 (3650 lbs/415 hp).
Losing 250-300 lbs in the M3 is much harder than adding HP in a cayman. And fact remains, Porsche HOLDS THE CAR BACK ON PURPOSE. So Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car...hmm. If you want to say 'lets see what the m3 does with 300 lbs les"...Im going to say why dont we see how badly the Cayman S would MURDER and UTTERLY EMBARASS the M3 and every M car with even the 997S engine... and if it had the 997.2 GT3 engine, not a single car out there let alone an M car would touch it.
The M3 barely beat a 997S that wasnt being driven at nearly full potential, and certainly not as the same amount the M3 was. I would hardly call a .2 and .4 difference decimating any car. Fact is, on 99.9% of tracks, the 997S IS faster, no question about it. Go look at fastest laps, the facts lie in the numbers, and the 997S holds a 1-2 second advantage on nearly every track on there (except the VIR).

I don't disagree with anything you're saying here. My issue is more with how you're structuring the debate with a Porsche bias.

First, you treat the Cayman S like the underdog in the competition with the M3 that manages to eke out a near tie with the M3. The fact is (and, again, I think we're saying the same thing here) the more expensive Cayman S is no underdog, it just takes a different approach to the M3 for getting around the track quickly. Acting like the Cayman S is the real winner here because it came close to the M3's time despite having an inferior power to weight ratio is disingenuous. The cars are what they are and have their respective advantages and disadvantages. Is the Cayman S the superior driver's car? Arguably, yes. Is the Cayman S faster than an M3 with the same driver around most tracks. Demonstrably, no. Could it be? Yes, but that's beside the point.

Second, I 100% agree that driven by experienced 911 drivers, the 997S is faster around any track than the M3, but your statement that "Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car" is ridiculous. The respective markets that BMW and Porsche target (or don't) has absolutely no bearing on the comparison of the M3 with the Cayman. The fact is that similarly optioned the Cayman S is more expensive than the M3 and the M3 still puts up slightly better track numbers. Bringing up the GT3, TT or any of the other 997 variants is akin to bragging about one's dad or big brother in school yard arguments.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry to come over all PRO-AUDI here

But did any of you notice the 3:08.4 time set by the TT-S, 265hp and hauling 1490kg. Very impressive figures for what is a fwd bias AWD car. Also a piss poor showing by the 370Z Nismo, I wonder what happened there?

The TT-S is definitely an impressive dark horse that doesn't get the attention it deserves. With respect to the Z, I don't put much stock in the numbers here given that the drivers clearly weren't the best.

[kuben]

I ran a 997 Carrera S on the top end.. I opened a bit of a gap at around 180 and after that couldn't open further.. Clocked 273 on the garmin on the coast.. No sign of a limiter.. Has anyone actually hit a limiter on these M's

Originally Posted by shift@red

The cayman doesnt need a better or equal power to weight to keep up with the m3. Fact is, even with the disadvantage in power to weight, the cayman S is neck and neck with the more powerful M3 on the track. So the cayman S at a power to weight of 9.375 (3000 lbs/320 hp) is keeping pace with a car with a power to weight of 8.795 (3650 lbs/415 hp). Pretty damn good for an entry level car.
Losing 250-300 lbs in the M3 is much harder than adding HP in a cayman. Fact remains, Porsche HOLDS THE CAR BACK ON PURPOSE. So Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car...hmm. If you want to say 'lets see what the m3 does with 300 lbs less (with every other car staying the same of course)"...Im going to say why dont we see how badly the Cayman S would MURDER and UTTERLY EMBARASS the M3 (and every other car) with the 997S engine... what about if it had the 997.2 GT3 engine, not a single car out there would touch it.
The M3 barely beat a 997S that wasnt being driven at nearly full potential, and certainly not as the same amount the M3 was. I would hardly call a .2 and .4 difference decimating any car. Fact is, on 99.9% of tracks, the 997S IS faster, no question about it. Go look at fastest laps, the facts lie in the numbers, and the 997S holds a 1-2 second advantage on nearly every track on there (except the VIR test).



+1...the driver is just as important as the car.

[footie]

Count to ten everyone, I deserve the same disapproval from you as Shift@Red does because I commented on this fact first. I don't think we are disagreeing with any one that the M3 isn't anything other than excetional, all we were highlighting was how impressive the Cayman was too all things considered.

As a better handling car the Cayman definitely is, some of this is undoubtably is engine placement and overall weight plus a whole lot of Porsche knowhow but all things consider M3 owner and Cayman owners should both feel as proud as punch, it's the owners of the Cayman's big brother that came should feel worst here.

P.S.
No doubting that vette is mighty impressive.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by shift@red

As far as power to weight goes, the cayman is an underdog...but we all know it is an overachiever given its ratings.
Where did I bring up a GT3 or TT? Those are in a whole different ballgame. I simply mentioned the engine of the GT3 for the cayman.

Then by the same token, you could say the M3 is an underdog in terms of pricing, total weight, and probably a few other metrics. Again, it's all about how you want to structure the argument, but at the end of the day, the numbers are the numbers.

You didn't specifically reference the GT3 or the TT, but impliedly referred to those cars by stating that "Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car." The fact that the Cayman S is Porsche's entry level offering and the M3 is BMW's most track-oriented vehicle is irrelevant to this comparison and doesn't change the fact that the Cayman S is still more expensive than the M3.

Again, I don't think you and I disagree on anything here, but I couldn't help but call you out on what I perceived to be some Porsche bias. I probably wouldn't have mentioned it, but in a forum full of fanboys (on all sides), I've generally valued your input and opinions as being more objective and well-reasoned than most.

[Crazy Bimmer]

Why our great love for the M3 then? Everyday usability? Check. Room for four adults? Check. Outrunning both of the lighter, costlier, and more performance-focused Porsches? Oh, yeah.

Sounds about right.

As for the Nismo..

[M&M]

Originally Posted by shift@red

As far as power to weight goes, the cayman is an underdog...

Racing around a circuit is about keeping momentum through the turns. Power-to-weight is more a straight-line type of measure.

For cornering it's more about the absolute weight, balance, centre of gravity, suspension setup, etc. And the fact that the M3 is designed to seat adults in the rear is a major deficit when trying to make it go around corners faster. If they didn't have to worry about fitting then peskt adults in the rear & their luggage they could be free from so many contraints and made it lower, better Cog, polar moment of inertia, stiffer, hell I can think of 100 more things they could have done better.

But they didn't. So the Porsche's platform is better for handling. But power-to-weight is not something I would bring up in a cornering argument.

[footie]

M&M,

I agree with everything you are saying. But the problem is that BMW have developed two M cars without these compromises and neither are as you as the Cayman or the 997 for that matter. They are the Z4M Coupe and the M6, personally I think BMW desired 50/50 balance which works really well with 4 seater saloon/coupes might not give to ideal packaging for a true sportscar.

I wonder will BMW ever drop these figure for the pursuit of the ultimate sportscar and if they did would it still feel like a BMW.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Pretty damn good for an entry level car.

Correction: entry level Porsche.

Originally Posted by shift@red

...Im going to say why dont we see how badly the Cayman S would MURDER and UTTERLY EMBARASS the M3 (and every other car) with the 997S engine... what about if it had the 997.2 GT3 engine, not a single car out there would touch it.

This is the thing TLud was talking about -- the "what if" -- that really isn't valid. It's only speculation. You don't know that the Cayman S would "MURDER and UTTERLY EMBARASS the M3 (and every other car)" with the 911 engine. The Cayman S is an extremely successfully balanced vehicle. Without expert chassis tuning I feel it would loose its character with a bigger engine. Everyone will agree it would be faster but could it realize this potential, we don't know.

Originally Posted by shift@red

The M3 barely beat a 997S that wasnt being driven at nearly full potential, and certainly not as the same amount the M3 was. I would hardly call a .2 and .4 difference decimating any car. Fact is, on 99.9% of tracks, the 997S IS faster, no question about it. Go look at fastest laps, the facts lie in the numbers, and the 997S holds a 1-2 second advantage on nearly every track on there (except the VIR test).

+1...the driver is just as important as the car.

Weren't the same drivers driving both cars? If the 911 wasn't being driven to nearly its full potential, then how can you say that the M3 was?

I'm just sayin' ...

[M3 vert]

Originally Posted by ersin

Correction: entry level Porsche.


This is the thing TLud was talking about -- the "what if" -- that really isn't valid. It's only speculation. You don't know that the Cayman S would "MURDER and UTTERLY EMBARASS the M3 (and every other car)" with the 911 engine. The Cayman S is an extremely successfully balanced vehicle. Without expert chassis tuning I feel it would loose its character with a bigger engine. Everyone will agree it would be faster but could it realize this potential, we don't know.



Weren't the same drivers driving both cars? If the 911 wasn't being driven to nearly its full potential, then how can you say that the M3 was?

I'm just sayin' ...

+ 1 Agreed