Is there a Vorsteiner Lip Replica yet?

[AutoTalent]

Originally Posted by Noodlefoxes

p.s. Taiwan is a city in South Dakota

Is it near Mount Rushmore?

[Noodlefoxes]

Originally Posted by endofanera7

For instance, I know for a fact that Gap clothing are made in taiwan and ship over here. All Gap does is sew their name onto the shirt or whatever to make it 10x more expensive.

When you think of high quality expensive clothes...do you think of the Gap?

Originally Posted by AutoTalent

Is it near Mount Rushmore?

Absolutely not! Taiwan is in the nice part of town.

[Bob@BPS]

For those of you that don't think there is anything wrong with supporting unscruplous copying of the intellectual property and talent of others, check out this article from AutoBlog:

"Japanese tuning firm Trust/Greddy declares bankruptcy

Posted Sep 10th 2008 3:32PM by Damon Lavrinc
Filed under: Aftermarket, Tuners, Government/Legal, Japan

The market for aftermarket parts from Japan has been declining for well over five years, due in part to decreased demand both at home and abroad and the rising rates of Chinese knock-offs and other inexpensive (and dubiously built) components.

Today, one of the world's largest performance parts companies, known as Trust in Japan and Greddy here in the States, declared bankruptcy. According to various reports, Trust is approximately $60 million in debt and, after reporting a serious decline in sales since February 2008 and amassing $43 million in loan payments, filed for bankruptcy in Tokyo District Court.

Trust has been around since 1976, employs almost 200 workers and had been dealing in everything from CARB-legal exhausts to turbo systems when Greddy Performance Products was founded in the U.S. in 1994. There are several firms that will step up to fill the need of enthusiasts, assuming that Trust doesn't try to reorganize, but with the aftermarket industry down overall, we suspect this won't be the last time we'll hear about a large tuner going under."

So, 200 employees jobs were on the line, and a portion of the reason for the collapse of a company that had been around for well over a decade was attributed to copying of their products. Here is a link to the original article. It appears they will be able to reorganize, but it's really sad that their situation got to that point.

If you don't think you are doing harm to the auto industry, as a whole, by buying knockoffs, you are sadly mistaken. Buying copies of authentic products is no different than illegally copying music, buying fake Rolexes, or any other product where the talents of the originator are being usurped. If you want to see new and cool products developed for your car, you MUST support the people with the talent to design and NOT the people with only enough talent to reverse engineer. Do NOT confuse knowledge with talent.

I've championed the cause of Straßentech on the E46 M3, and seen first hand the effect that copies can have on a brand. I've also learned that those who will buy and support the thieves will find a way to justify their actions. Just know that what you are doing is hurting someone somewhere, and taking the position that the designer is making too much money, or you can't risk getting an expensive part damaged is NO EXCUSE. Do YOU think you are paid too much in YOUR profession?

If you want to feel good about yourself and your $70K car, don't put cheap, unscrupulous and potentially illegal copies of parts on your car. Put yourself in the designer's position and ask yourself how you'd feel if someone stole YOUR design and was making money off YOUR talent instead of you.

THIS IS A MORAL ISSUE AS MUCH AS A FINANCIAL ONE.

Bob DeLellis, President
Bimmer Performance Store, Ltd.

[Bob@BPS]

I forgot mention...

FLAME SUIT IS ON!!!

[Griz]

Originally Posted by dipan

Reverie makes dry carbon lips for the Lotus Elise that are pretty expensive, but made in Japan, full dry carbon, and light as *#@%. After that one shattered on me, I was less hell bent on highest quality in a front splitter and ordered a half carbon version for a fraction of the cost. Fit's just fine and looks the same.

And probably weighs 2 ounces more, at the most.

[Speedtrap]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

For those of you that don't think there is anything wrong with supporting unscruplous copying of the intellectual property and talent of others, check out this article from AutoBlog:

"Japanese tuning firm Trust/Greddy declares bankruptcy

Posted Sep 10th 2008 3:32PM by Damon Lavrinc
Filed under: Aftermarket, Tuners, Government/Legal, Japan

The market for aftermarket parts from Japan has been declining for well over five years, due in part to decreased demand both at home and abroad and the rising rates of Chinese knock-offs and other inexpensive (and dubiously built) components.

Today, one of the world's largest performance parts companies, known as Trust in Japan and Greddy here in the States, declared bankruptcy. According to various reports, Trust is approximately $60 million in debt and, after reporting a serious decline in sales since February 2008 and amassing $43 million in loan payments, filed for bankruptcy in Tokyo District Court.

Trust has been around since 1976, employs almost 200 workers and had been dealing in everything from CARB-legal exhausts to turbo systems when Greddy Performance Products was founded in the U.S. in 1994. There are several firms that will step up to fill the need of enthusiasts, assuming that Trust doesn't try to reorganize, but with the aftermarket industry down overall, we suspect this won't be the last time we'll hear about a large tuner going under."

So, 200 employees jobs were on the line, and a portion of the reason for the collapse of a company that had been around for well over a decade was attributed to copying of their products. Here is a link to the original article. It appears they will be able to reorganize, but it's really sad that their situation got to that point.

If you don't think you are doing harm to the auto industry, as a whole, by buying knockoffs, you are sadly mistaken. Buying copies of authentic products is no different than illegally copying music, buying fake Rolexes, or any other product where the talents of the originator are being usurped. If you want to see new and cool products developed for your car, you MUST support the people with the talent to design and NOT the people with only enough talent to reverse engineer. Do NOT confuse knowledge with talent.

I've championed the cause of Straßentech on the E46 M3, and seen first hand the effect that copies can have on a brand. I've also learned that those who will buy and support the thieves will find a way to justify their actions. Just know that what you are doing is hurting someone somewhere, and taking the position that the designer is making too much money, or you can't risk getting an expensive part damaged is NO EXCUSE. Do YOU think you are paid too much in YOUR profession?

If you want to feel good about yourself and your $70K car, don't put cheap, unscrupulous and potentially illegal copies of parts on your car. Put yourself in the designer's position and ask yourself how you'd feel if someone stole YOUR design and was making money off YOUR talent instead of you.

THIS IS A MORAL ISSUE AS MUCH AS A FINANCIAL ONE.

Bob DeLellis, President
Bimmer Performance Store, Ltd.

Its really sad when a lot of resellers do not wake up themselves as this is the 22nd century, and if you do not sell to your customers as the price they want; then resellers would go out of business.

Why would JLevi sells replica parts?

http://www.jlevistreetwerks.com/p174...duct_info.html

Why would Vivid Racing sells replica parts?

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/b...4218_4235.html

Why would CA sells replica parts?

http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/products.php?cat_id=41

The lists goes on replica wheels, replica CSL bumper, CSL bootlid, etc etc....; and the question is why would you use a distributor who sells replica parts to sell on your original parts?

Competition is what we need around here and not monopoly! in any consumer markets. You can look at low cost airlines that had made the consumer happy by destroying the monopoply ...list goes on in ever industry...we as consumers strife for the balance of te best product with the best prices.

[Seth_Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

I forgot mention...

FLAME SUIT IS ON!!!

I won't flame you, but I don't necesarily agree. My family is in a manufacturing business, and their designs are copied by Chinese manufacturers within months. For that reason, I can see that side. But, they have had to differentiate themselves through better quality products, and better service. Prices have certainly been hurt, but it is what it is. Their products are now priced at a point where a consumer feels that it's worth paying the extra money for them. Back on point, an "aerodynamic" (I use quotes because these parts are just for show) piece, can be knocked off quite easily, so the manufacturer needs to add value somewhere else. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Vorsteiner has increased prices on certain E92 pieces just because the M3 came out. By all forms of logic, an increased customer base should lead to decreased costs. The addition of this "M premium" has pissed off a lot of people. They clearly make a nice product, with very good fitment. They need to do more to justify the increased price of their goods, though. Is this fair? No. The world's not fair, though, so you need to do what you have to do to keep a company viable. Further, I'm not sure that I'd compare Greddy to Vorsteiner. Greddy spent a tremendous amount of time on R&D for electronic performance systems for cars, which were reverse engineered and manufactured on the cheap. Vorsteiner makes "pretty parts" that require a good designer, and a bit of manufacturing quality control. That's just my opinion. That, and $2 will get you a bus ride.

[Bob@BPS]

Originally Posted by Speedtrap

Its really sad when a lot of resellers do not wake up themselves as this is the 22nd century, and if you do not sell to your customers as the price they want; then resellers would go out of business.

Why would JLevi sells replica parts?

http://www.jlevistreetwerks.com/p174...duct_info.html

Why would Vivid Racing sells replica parts?

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/b...4218_4235.html

Why would CA sells replica parts?

http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/products.php?cat_id=41

The lists goes on replica wheels, replica CSL bumper, CSL bootlid, etc etc....; and the question is why would you use a distributor who sells replica parts to sell on your original parts?

Competition is what we need around here and not monopoly! in any consumer markets. You can look at low cost airlines that had made the consumer happy by destroying the monopoply ...list goes on in ever industry...we as consumers strife for the balance of te best product with the best prices.

Dude...you missed the point completely, and it's exactly what I expected someone would say. You are about the 1 millionth person that tries to use CSL parts as an example and here is why your argument holds NO water.

BMW CHOOSES NOT TO MARKET CSL PRODUCTS IN THE USA. NO ONE IS STEALING PROFITS FROM BMW BY MAKING A PART THEY REFUSE TO SELL IN THIS MARKET.

Justify purchasing replica parts however you want, but did your mother ever say to you like, "if so-and-so jumped off a bridge, would you do it?". It'a a very old cliche' that basically means, just because some do wrong, doesn't make it right.

If we change even one mind about the morality of buying parts that are being blatantly copied by another sponsor here, then we have accomplished something. Let's all just go down the list of sponsors here that manufacture an original product and figure out who to screw next.

Bob

[Saturn]

3rd time's a charm:

Why does Vorsteiner charge a mark up for M3 Aero parts over 335 when they are of identical construction and fitment?

[Speedtrap]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

Dude...you missed the point completely, and it's exactly what I expected someone would say. You are about the 1 millionth person that tries to use CSL parts as an example and here is why your argument holds NO water.

BMW CHOOSES NOT TO MARKET CSL PRODUCTS IN THE USA. NO ONE IS STEALING PROFITS FROM BMW BY MAKING A PART THEY REFUSE TO SELL IN THIS MARKET.

Justify purchasing replica parts however you want, but did your mother ever say to you like, "if so-and-so jumped off a bridge, would you do it?". It'a a very old cliche' that basically means, just because some do wrong, doesn't make it right.

If we change even one mind about the morality of buying parts that are being blatantly copied by another sponsor here, then we have accomplished something. Let's all just go down the list of sponsors here that manufacture an original product and figure out who to screw next.

Bob

Well dude...you can quite clearly see that as a customer here myself, I am stating everything clearly including wheels and replica parts in the thread above; and why can you not see that if you are arrogant enough to accept the fact that replica parts are here to stay; people stay well clear of your business...

[Bob@BPS]

Originally Posted by Speedtrap

Well dude...you can quite clearly see that as a customer here myself, I am stating everything clearly including wheels and replica parts in the thread above; and why can you not see that if you are arrogant enough to accept the fact that replica parts are here to stay; people stay well clear of your business...

I understand you feel you have a valid position and, quite clearly, you don't see a moral issue with regard to this topic. Those of us who opt not to carry the copies of authentic aftermarket parts and see a problem with someone soliciting what parts to steal next are probably never going to have your business anyway. If we carry only the top-of-the-line products and those all cost more than you are willing to spend, then we really haven't lost a customer, have we?

Again, those that prefer to give their business to the copycats will find a way to justify why it's OK to screw over the companies that make and develop the original products. All we can do is try to appeal to your conscience and ask that you not support what we believe to be an unscrupulous business practice.

[endofanera7]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

I understand you feel you have a valid position and, quite clearly, you don't see a moral issue with regard to this topic. Those of us who opt not to carry the copies of authentic aftermarket parts and see a problem with someone soliciting what parts to steal next are probably never going to have your business anyway. If we carry only the top-of-the-line products and those all cost more than you are willing to spend, then we really haven't lost a customer, have we?

Again, those that prefer to give their business to the copycats will find a way to justify why it's OK to screw over the companies that make and develop the original products. All we can do is try to appeal to your conscience and ask that you not support what we believe to be an unscrupulous business practice.

That's right Bob, let's screw those copycats by doing a really good group buy, a group buy that will be remembered in the history of m3post forever.

[Speedtrap]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

I understand you feel you have a valid position and, quite clearly, you don't see a moral issue with regard to this topic. Those of us who opt not to carry the copies of authentic aftermarket parts and see a problem with someone soliciting what parts to steal next are probably never going to have your business anyway. If we carry only the top-of-the-line products and those all cost more than you are willing to spend, then we really haven't lost a customer, have we?

Again, those that prefer to give their business to the copycats will find a way to justify why it's OK to screw over the companies that make and develop the original products. All we can do is try to appeal to your conscience and ask that you not support what we believe to be an unscrupulous business practice.

I do not see a moral issue at all Bob since the other cherished resellers here are selling replica parts as well..should the setting of examples not set by the resellers or distributors? as you keep avoiding the question time and time again??? its like the pot calling the kettle black???

[Bob@BPS]

Originally Posted by Saturn

3rd time's a charm:

Why does Vorsteiner charge a mark up for M3 Aero parts over 335 when they are of identical construction and fitment?

There are a lot of professionals in any BMW forum with business degrees, MBAs, Econ majors, etc., but this should all make sense, even if you aren't a business major.

It has to do with cost of development, prototyping, tooling etc and the related economies of scale associated with each product. All manufacturers I am personally associated with (Vorsteiner, aFe, Borla, etc.), do an in-depth analysis of all of those costs and amortize them over the estimated number of units that will be sold. There are currently more 335 owners than M3 owners, so there are fewer estimated units to recoup the cost of creating and producing the product. In the case of the bootlid, they are the same price and same product with just a difference in choice of 1X1 weave to match the OEM M3 CF roof or a 2X2 twill if you a little more defined weave.

Bob

[ACZakka325i]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

There are currently more 335 owners than M3 owners, so there are fewer estimated units to recoup the cost of creating and producing the product. In the case of the bootlid, they are the same price and same product with just a difference in choice of 1X1 weave to match the OEM M3 CF roof or a 2X2 twill if you a little more defined weave.

Bob

What the hell are you talking about? The fitment is the SAME so there are effectively MORE units to amortize the COGS over.

[RED///M3]

Originally Posted by endofanera7

That's right Bob, let's screw those copycats by doing a really good group buy, a group buy that will be remembered in the history of m3post forever.

I agree....vorsteiner group buy on your front lip asap under 700$!

[Bob@BPS]

Originally Posted by ACZakka325i

What the hell are you talking about? The fitment is the SAME so there are effectively MORE units to amortize the COGS over.

What part are YOU talking about? Vorsteiner has THREE parts for the E92 M3. There is a front spoiler and rear diffuser, which are M3 ONLY, so they are NOT from the same mold or developed during the same R&D process. Then there is the bootlid, which is the same price for any coupe, whether 335, 328 or M3. So, please show me where we're getting screwed, because I had to pay for my parts, too. if I got screwed, I'm going to complain, too.

The front and rear bumpers of the E92 M3, just like the E46 M3, are different than 335s & 328s, so you can NOT amortize the production cost of the M3 spoiler and diffuser over the 335/328 units. We M3 owners are special...we get diferent bumpers, fenders, rear quarter panels, hoods and for some of us, a carbon fiber roof. Please check your info to confirm, and let me know if I am wrong.

Bob

[gthirtyfizle]

Originally Posted by RED///M3

I agree....vorsteiner group buy on your front lip asap under 700$!

I would b in lol

But honestly i can care less if its real or not cause to me its a part that prone to get destroyed in NYC lol, therefore cannot justify spending that much on a lip. All I think vorsteiner should do is make the same exact lip in a non CF application for those who want to paint it and sell that accordingly. Then I wouldnt even think about goin replica.

[Bob@BPS]

BTW, I just found out a great option for you guys that either don't want to spend the $$ on the CF front lip spoiler or plan on painting it, anyway. Vorsteiner will be releasing an E92 M3 front lip spoiler in Polyurethane.

Stay tuned... pricing and actual release date will be announced soon.

Bob

[RED///M3]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

BTW, I just found out a great option for you guys that either don't want to spend the $$ on the CF front lip spoiler or plan on painting it, anyway. Vorsteiner will be releasing an E92 M3 front lip spoiler in Polyurethane.

Stay tuned... pricing and actual release date will be announced soon.

Bob

Nice! thats what were talking about.....

[Saturn]

I am familiar with the distribution of variable costs, amortization, economies of scale and processes of manufacturing. Perhaps what is less obvious is that for a company like vorsteiner, the only cost associated with differentiating a similar product (such as a rear diffuser) between two similar but slightly different applications (335 and M3) is minor retooling at the least, and the production of a second master mold at the most.

Recall: the size and shape of the diffusers are identical. There are at most minor differences in mounting points and subtle differences in design.






Given the overall size of the market for 3 series diffusers, I refuse to believe that some slight retooling warrants a $300 per unit increase in final price for the consumer.

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

There are a lot of professionals in any BMW forum with business degrees, MBAs, Econ majors, etc., but this should all make sense, even if you aren't a business major.

It has to do with cost of development, prototyping, tooling etc and the related economies of scale associated with each product. All manufacturers I am personally associated with (Vorsteiner, aFe, Borla, etc.), do an in-depth analysis of all of those costs and amortize them over the estimated number of units that will be sold. There are currently more 335 owners than M3 owners, so there are fewer estimated units to recoup the cost of creating and producing the product. In the case of the bootlid, they are the same price and same product with just a difference in choice of 1X1 weave to match the OEM M3 CF roof or a 2X2 twill if you a little more defined weave.

Bob

[ACZakka325i]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

What part are YOU talking about? Vorsteiner has THREE parts for the E92 M3. There is a front spoiler and rear diffuser, which are M3 ONLY, so they are NOT from the same mold or developed during the same R&D process. Then there is the bootlid, which is the same price for any coupe, whether 335, 328 or M3. So, please show me where we're getting screwed, because I had to pay for my parts, too. if I got screwed, I'm going to complain, too.

The front and rear bumpers of the E92 M3, just like the E46 M3, are different than 335s & 328s, so you can NOT amortize the production cost of the M3 spoiler and diffuser over the 335/328 units. We M3 owners are special...we get diferent bumpers, fenders, rear quarter panels, hoods and for some of us, a carbon fiber roof. Please check your info to confirm, and let me know if I am wrong.

Bob

I stand corrected. I was refering mostly to the bootlid.