Proof of OE/Gintani dyno manipulation

[IMG]

Originally Posted by m33

This is all a crock of crap !! I hate run arounds ...
This dyno event shouldnt take more than 2 hours , your telling me you don't have two hours to prove your golden point ??? Pleaseee
Where's Batman when you need him ....
:Robin to batman : holy tampered dyno Batman the Joker is at it again ... Quick to the ESS SC'rd Batmobile ...

[Chako]

Could one of the Gintani/OE support network (ie. avid customer) go in place? Along with video I think this would offset any bias.

This all depends on timing again though. Just a thought.
I think one of the forum members' concerns are that this will be swept under the rug.

[BPMSport]

Hi James,

I run a business myself, but still made time to make the arrangements and to get back to you. A simple text message saying that you would be unable to make it would have been sufficient. Instead, you led me to believe that you would be available for the test. I wasted my time making the arrangements. Believe me, I have much better things to do. I rescheduled clients that pay me $100-$125 per hour for my IT services. I lost more than you paid for your OE Tune from phone calls and blocking off Friday for the event.

Both parties do not need to be there for a fair test. It's as simple as dynoing your car as it rolls in, and then dynoing it with the PC software you had before. This doesn't need to be over complicated.

Video taping the event, or having someone else from Gintani/OE, one of their friends, customers, or 10 of them, would have been more than enough. There was an open invitation present.

That said, considering my efforts were a waste of time, I am no longer going to invest anymore time in this. As busy as I am, I still have the courtesy, at the very least, to get back to people that are trying to make things right for me.

We literally offered you over a thousand dollars on a silver platter to continue with the test (between the dyno, ezflash unit, and refund), I'm not sure how much more generous we could have possibly been. I find it odd that this wasn't important enough to Gintani/OE or you to take two hours out of your schedule to verify these claims. But hey, ignorance is bliss, right?

Good luck with your car and tune. Feel free to contact me with any questions.

Mike B

Originally Posted by xchosun1x

Sorry guys for the MIA action on my part but I got swamped with projects for work. I run a small design company and the deadlines were just insane lately.

To answer any of the questions or comments that were made....

OE/gintani did NOT push me away from participating in this test in any way.

I have no affiliation with either pc or OE/gintani and someone mentioning "what kind of powers does oe/gintani have over the OP" is just retarded.

I want this test to be as fair as possible. I want BOTH parties to be there regardless.

If both parties are not there it is not a fair test, hands down.

okay, I was a bit bummed out that OE/Gintani stated they would have time after M fest, so be it. But in the whole scheme of things, what does a few more weeks mean? Just relax people. OE/Gintani did reply to the thread stating that they have no problem in this test and I'll take their word for it and hopefully they will keep their word.

I apologize to Mike for not getting in contact with you regarding todays test session however my work is much more a priority over my car, as being a business owner.

I'm sure most of you could understand that.

However, with all that said.....after M Fest will be the real test of things.

[xchosun1x]

mike,

you had told me that you were already going to be there for 2 or 3 other customers cars and that this was not going to be just me going to the dyno. Since you had other customers there, it was a good time to fit me in.

As a matter of fact, I did not receive your message this morning. I do apologize for my lack on communication, as stated earlier.

You mentioned you would call me early in the week to confirm the time however you ended up calling me the day before.

I do not know why you are retracting your offer as this is was a matter of a scheduling conflict which you seemed to call Gintani out on as well.

It is not a matter of taking 2 hours out of my time. The commute to the location and back, plus when did a car schedule really ever be accurate? It might seem to you that it is fair that Gintani/OE not be present during the testing however I made it very apparent that it should be.

I understand your generosity and willingness to get to the bottom of this issue. I would happy to partially pay for the next dyno session with CAT. Just getting up and calling it quits now doesn't solve anything.

If you want, we can schedule a hard date and time after M fest which gives gintani no excuses to come out, since they were communicating that M Fest was the issue with scheduling.

This issue is a concern of mine however I am not a vendor, tuner etc. If this issue was important to you, PC and the tune you gave me, why retract the offer now? Wouldn't rescheduling be simple enough, since you were already there to tune other cars? My current clients are more important than my car's tune at this point, hence being busy.

My offer for partial paying of the dyno time is on the table. I do not personally need an EZ flash, nor did I ask for it. Having one there would be great to keep files away from competing vendors and thats all.

What you say?

[alpine335i]

Just go dyno your car yourself and compare the dyno results to the ones OE/gintani gave you previously. You don't need PC and there Garbage tune away. This is about OE and the dyno graph they gave you. And I thought this was a third Party dyno? Now it's a dyno PC uses Regularly? No wonder they want to do it with out Jeremy.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by alpine335i

Just go dyno your car yourself and compare the dyno results to the ones OE/gintani gave you previously. You don't need PC and there Garbage tune away. This is about OE and the dyno graph they gave you. And I thought this was a third Party dyno? Now it's a dyno PC uses Regularly? No wonder they want to do it with out Jeremy.

It's about the the dyno OE did, but it's also about the claim of 25hp (or so) over the PC tune. So whether you like PC or not their tune needs to be a part of the test.

[alpine335i]

Last time I brought that up Mike claimed it wasnt about that. It was about OE's graph and how it looked manipulated because they gains are all even across the rpm range. So which is it?

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by alpine335i

Last time I brought that up Mike claimed it wasnt about that. It was about OE's graph and how it looked manipulated because they gains are all even across the rpm range. So which is it?

I believe if you read back, the money back offer is based on the claim of OE making 25hp more than PC

[alpine335i]

Yes but now mike has taken back his offer, hence why I said screw him and PC and the Op should go by himself now and just verify his gains

[geneatals]

Originally Posted by alpine335i

Yes but now mike has taken back his offer, hence why I said screw him and PC and the Op should go by himself now and just verify his gains

in order to do that he would have to flash back to stock then flash again with the OE tune...pre and post dyno's on the same car, dyno, and by the same operator would be the ideal methodology....

I'm hoping that a date after mfest can be agreed upon as I don't see any other reasons/excuses not to make this test happen after that...but you never know..

[persian54]

Originally Posted by geneatals

in order to do that he would have to flash back to stock then flash again with the OE tune...pre and post dyno's on the same car, dyno, and by the same operator would be the ideal methodology....

I'm hoping that a date after mfest can be agreed upon as I don't see any other reasons/excuses not to make this test happen after that...but you never know..

Not really

if he goes to a 3rd party dyno, if the whp/wtq on that dyno is the same/similar to the numbers on the OE dyno, then it will in itself be worth it

Op:
you can do 3 dyno runs for about $70 in Chatsworth. I doubt it'll cost much more elsewhere.
Go do it

[J08M3]

yea, really, you need to test with tune and without and with PC, otherwise there will be no conclusion to the questions raised in this thread

[persian54]

Originally Posted by J08M3

yea, really, you need to test with tune and without and with PC, otherwise there will be no conclusion to the questions raised in this thread

well to do all of that he will need OE and PC

but, if he can go to a dyno himself and just see what his car dynos at, he can see if he is making the claims stated by OE or not.
This way only he has to schedule something, not schedule with OE and PC.

[11' AW M3]

Originally Posted by persian54

Not really

if he goes to a 3rd party dyno, if the whp/wtq on that dyno is the same/similar to the numbers on the OE dyno, then it will in itself be worth it

Op:
you can do 3 dyno runs for about $70 in Chatsworth. I doubt it'll cost much more elsewhere.
Go do it

You are forgetting different dyno's read differently. To get an accurate answer, he will need to do a stock baseline run (a few actually), then load up the oe tuning software and do a few runs that way. The conditions need to be the same, and all else equal.

alpine335- aren't you an OETuning dealer? If so, get your biased garbage out of here. Your attempts at distracting from the issues at hand are futile and pathetic at best. I don't think it can get any more fair than what Mike has proposed. Let them do the test fair and square. The numbers will speak for themselves!

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by persian54

Not really

if he goes to a 3rd party dyno, if the whp/wtq on that dyno is the same/similar to the numbers on the OE dyno, then it will in itself be worth it

Op:
you can do 3 dyno runs for about $70 in Chatsworth. I doubt it'll cost much more elsewhere.
Go do it

Not necessarily. The car needs to be in its current form and dyno'd and it needs to be then reflashed to stock, driven for adaptation then retest. (On the same dyno on the same tank of gas.)

Even if the test was conducted in reverse order, the "tuner" can simply load up the car with a manipulated, over timed tune that isn't what they normally sell just to prove their point. Shady? Absolutely. Possible? Absolutely. Sad? Absolutely.

I can spill out a lot of information, but I rather not get involved. If there is anything I can do to help, I will be more than willing.

I think one thing that should be done if this test ever takes place, is the knock monitors should be monitored.

[11' AW M3]

Originally Posted by persian54

well to do all of that he will need OE and PC

but, if he can go to a dyno himself and just see what his car dynos at, he can see if he is making the claims stated by OE or not.
This way only he has to schedule something, not schedule with OE and PC.

OE doesn't need to be there if they have that EZ Flash. Of course, it would be great if they would show up, but at the end of the day, if they are unwilling to do so the test must go on.

Either way, the whole thing needs to be videotaped!

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by 11' AW M3

You are forgetting different dyno's read differently. To get an accurate answer, he will need to do a stock baseline run (a few actually), then load up the oe tuning software and do a few runs that way. The conditions need to be the same, and all else equal.

alpine335- aren't you an OETuning dealer? If so, get your biased garbage out of here. Your attempts at distracting from the issues at hand are futile and pathetic at best. I don't think it can get any more fair than what Mike has proposed. Let them do the test fair and square. The numbers will speak for themselves!

He needs to dyno in current "tuned" form first, then re-dyno stock on the same dyno on the same tank of gas.

Doing it the other way can open a major pile of variables.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Not necessarily. The car needs to be in its current form and dyno'd and it needs to be then reflashed to stock, driven for adaptation then retest. (On the same dyno on the same tank of gas.)

Even if the test was conducted in reverse order, the "tuner" can simply load up the car with a manipulated, over timed tune that isn't what they normally sell just to prove their point. Shady? Absolutely. Possible? Absolutely. Sad? Absolutely.

I can spill out a lot of information, but I rather not get involved. If there is anything I can do to help, I will be more than willing.

I think one thing that should be done if this test ever takes place, is the knock monitors should be monitored.

Then the EZ Flash is what he needs

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by persian54

Then the EZ Flash is what he needs

That would help, in a way, as long as the car is receiving its true stock tune in return.

I strongly do recommend someone monitor the knock of the motor, in tuned form and stock tune form. If indeed this tune is holding true to its claims, there must be a reason why.

[J08M3]

I doubt the test will ever happen. If it does I can almost guarantee there will be to many variables at hand for one side or the other to definitively prove their point.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by J08M3

I doubt the test will ever happen. If it does I can almost guarantee there will be to many variables at hand for one side or the other to definitively prove their point.

Are the tunes readily available?

If they are, they can use my car.

[11' AW M3]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

He needs to dyno in current "tuned" form first, then re-dyno stock on the same dyno on the same tank of gas.

Doing it the other way can open a major pile of variables.

good point. OE should have no ability to modify the tune from what is on his vehicle currently. The order should be the following:

a few dyno runs with the current tune --> Load stock software and let it adapt --> a few dyno runs with the stock software --> Load PC software and let it adapt --> a few dyno runs with the PC software --> Reload the software of choice if necessary