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08-13-2008, 03:36 AM | #67 | |
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It is definitely ridiculous, some guy sitting at his keyboard thinking he knows better than some of the best engineers in the world hand picked to serve in the most exclusive division of a top multi-national company. |
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08-13-2008, 08:45 AM | #68 | |
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Clearly, the C63 is a real challenge to the M3. It my be the first time that you have a "pick your purchase and you can't lose" situation between the two vendors in this narrow niche. Thumbs up, sez I, but if you're a fanboy, the situation may force you to begin leaping into bed, assuming the prenatal position and turning your electric blanket up to 9. Bruce |
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08-13-2008, 09:42 AM | #69 | |
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In regard to the LS3 (and LS7, I guess) powerplants, they can get away with the tall overall gearing that would make the 4 liter bimmer falter in everyday driving, and can thus deliver better mileage. In regard to your GTO performance comments, you forgot to allow for the Pontiac's 3800 (yes, 3800) pound portliness, so subtract another three tenths or so for that when installed in an M3, plus another tenth or two for the more aggressive final drive gearing in the M3. Result? The M3 should be a hair quicker on track (as befitting the 22 HP gain), and more responsive in everyday driving at low and medium revs. In addition, the GTO gets better mileage than the M3, and not just on paper. One of my sons has an '05, and his routinely gets in the 17-18 range around town, and 25 out on the road in the 75-80 mph range. The M3 would likely be near those mileage numbers with the LS3 powerplant. I tend to agree that it would be a perversion of M values, but that's only if you care about Tradition, and of course there's nothing wrong with doing that. My use of the term "better" meant a faster car, with better mileage and no handling penalty. Anecdotally, my son's GTO now has somebody's blower on it, making 511 HP at the rear wheels, so it is absolutely giggle fast - and no mileage penalty in all-around driving, if you can believe that. He drives it just as much as his 997S, and appears to like it about as much - but for different reasons, of course. Bruce |
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08-13-2008, 09:51 AM | #70 |
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GTO does not get better gas milage. I just sold an 05 that I owned for three years before buying my M3. My average in the GTO was around 12 mpg, driving the same way I'm averaging about 13.5 in my M3. With out a doubt the M3 is faster cause it handles so there is no need to slow down around turns, and the brakes are great allowing you to keep a high speed longer. From a dead stop though in a straight line the GTO would definitely give the M3 a run for the money.
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08-13-2008, 09:57 AM | #71 |
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I must say though, the LS2 was a great engine. Without comparing all the stats on paper and whatever technology is inside the engine or whatever the block is made out of. The performance really is good. You can feel it when driving the car. Very strong, reliable, smooth, and once you got it over 2,000 rpm you could just feel it making power all the way up to redline. I haven't memorized what the torque curve looks like on a dyno for it. But I do know how it behaves from the drivers seat. Plus 6th gear in the GTO was so nice, cruising down the highway at 75 MPH was only 1,900 rpm. and about 24 MPG.
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08-13-2008, 11:14 AM | #72 | |
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08-13-2008, 11:49 AM | #73 | |
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08-13-2008, 12:46 PM | #74 | ||||||
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I thought I addressed your drivel about unobtanium-filled connecting rods by saying that the Chevy would last at least as long as the bimmer, each driven within their respective limits. See, the Chevy doesn't need those rods (and the other admittedly cool stuff) because it doesn't need to rev as high to produce more power than the bimmer. Capische? BMW goes to the trouble because they have to, in turn because the M tradition is for high revving engines making a lot of power per liter. Quote:
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Anecdotally, CAGS was a real mileage-killer in that car. Everybody who owned one would both gun it and rev it in first gear to avoid that piece of engineering crap, and thus used more fuel, rather than less. We all defeated it first chance we got. Why, compared with each of the other engines we've been discussing, of course. Quote:
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08-13-2008, 01:12 PM | #75 |
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Some good discussion and a lot of terrible trash talk here. As well most of the topics we have beat into the ground in past discussions and debates. Although I won't directly enter this debate, I do have a few comments.
Bruce: -Recall the simulation work I did by putting the LS7 engine and transmission into the M3. It won all 0-speed X contests based on time but curiously enough it lost most time to distance contests meaning that in a street race between an M3 and M3 with Vette engine the good old M3 would actually win. You didn't much like those results then and I doubt you will like them now either. -As well if you think that the 6.2 liter engine in the Merc could in any possible way be smaller than the 3.99 liter M3 engine you are really in a fantasy world. Larger pistons = larger piston spacing = longer block = longer engine (all other things being roughly equal). You know as well as I do that that poster will not be able to produce dimensional data for either engine. The size of the M3 engine and the way it can be placed in its chassis are key parts of the entire vehicle design. I know you also think the 6.2 l Merc engine is as light or lighter than the M3 but very simple geometric and physics based arguments tell us this is not possible. It is like saying the fat man weighs less than the skinny man, perhaps because he is less dense. The density argument is also in direct contradiction with the engineering. Engine components must be highly engineered for high rpm, typically meaning very light and superb strength to weight ratio. If identical mass rotating components are used at the M3s redline they will have almost 40% more stress than if operated at the C63s redline. This is why they are not the same mass - they HAVE to be lighter. Despite the published specs on engine weights I'll simply refuse to believe that those are true "apples to apples" specifications. It is specsmanship, not reality. |
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08-13-2008, 01:13 PM | #76 | ||||
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08-13-2008, 01:22 PM | #77 | |
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08-13-2008, 01:25 PM | #78 | |
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Faster is always better? Why aren't we all driving Z06's? Maybe if someone really feels they need more power than the M3 has stock the aftermarket exists to satisfy such demands? Uh, gearing matters once you get under way. The M5/M6 have to be at the top of the powerband to be as quick as they are. Look at the difference between the manual transmissions and SMG. The cars are MUCH faster with 7 gears, from a roll or stop. Many people felt the 2.2 made the s2000 lazy and less exciting, losing some character. Plus, Honda just could not keep the 2.0's together with the 9k redline and it was a business decision not one in the favor of the enthusiast. Uh, YES, they do cheat the EPA. They design the cars to inflate their numbers on the EPA test. You talk about vettes and their mileage how about that their 6th gear is just a fuel mileage gear? The z06 hits top speed in 5th gear, not 6th. You give the M3 a 7.0 liter motor and the m3's gearing it is going to burn fuel faster than a 4.0 liter, it is simply inevitable. There is a long list of cars with larger motors with more torque that get bitch slapped by the M3. The evidence clearly points that the M3 is exactly where it should be and an impressive performer at that. Nothing else stacks up to it per liter (GT3). No, you DID suggest BMW should use the LS3 saying the car would be better with it. This is essentially saying the LS3 is a better motor for the car. How else should one interpret your statement regarding if the sole difference was the motor the M3 would be a better car? As for the AMG 63 dimensions, you look it up, this isn't a homework assignment and I think I have typed out quite enough information for you as is. You say the M3 is heavy and needs a larger motor for its weight. It is the lightest car in its class and shockingly close to the E46 M3. Many have weighed their car and the numbers were the same as my SMG E46 M3, crazy? |
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08-13-2008, 01:36 PM | #79 | |
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I am sorry if I came across rude with my last comment. I believe that you a a great attribute to this board and that you are one of the most knowledgeable members, but I don't always agree with your comments sometimes regarding the LSX and the M3. |
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08-13-2008, 02:51 PM | #80 | |
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08-13-2008, 02:55 PM | #81 | |
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08-13-2008, 03:04 PM | #82 | |
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08-13-2008, 03:27 PM | #83 | ||
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After reading some in-depth tech analysis from Mercedes when it was first announced (including metallurgy), I'm willing to believe the Merc is indeed very light for its capacity. Plus of course Mercedes says it's lighter, and while you say they're lying in public, I am willing to believe them. No problem, we just disagree again, as is often the case. Bruce |
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08-13-2008, 04:35 PM | #84 |
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Depends how you drive it.... If you use the 400hp they gave you, don't expect better than the 12-13 around town. Of course if you baby it around as a friend of mine tried for a week he got around 18 in town. Highway isn't going to be better than low 20s and that's higher than the sticker says.
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08-13-2008, 04:41 PM | #85 | |
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I had pulled into my local Sunoco station with my just-tuned '64 GTO, silver, TriPower, 4-speed, posi and all - and there were not one, but two XK-Es pulled up to the pumps. Nirvana. I do the quick mental evaluation ("Yeah, I could take them through a quarter mile, but then..."), and pull up to a free pump next to one of the Jags. The older guy who had just pulled in got out of the other Jag and began walking toward the one by me, giant smile on his face, hand beginning to reach out in preparation for a hearty shake, when the somewhat younger guy (who hadn't seen the other guy yet) lifted the hood. Small-block Chevy! Over a period of perhaps five seconds, the older guy's face went from joy, to confusion, to bewilderment, and finally to sheer outrage. He clenched his fists, and for a second I thought he was going to hit the other guy - and so did he. Then he just sort of wilted, shuffled off to his "proper" XK-E, and drove off without getting gas. Now, a lot of guys were stuffing small-blocks into Jags back then for what were obvious reasons at the time. The Jag was a temperamental, oil-guzzling, always-in-need-of-a-tuneup engine, prone to overheating, and with Lucas "Prince of Darkness" electrics. The Chevy was a more powerful, more reliable, cheaper to run powerplant, equipped with Delco electrics, plus there were cheap parts available everywhere, including an unbelievable array of speed equipment. It was even a little lighter than the Jag engine. Plus it made that brassy, blaring, clarion call to battle sound that only came in packages marked small block Chevy at the time. Still, something was clearly lost. Those cam covers. That lovely, wicked and edgy snarl, at idle and everywhere else, turning to a melodious howl at full chat, as they say. I could see the case for both sides. Now, of course, I feel the same way about the M3 with a Chevy motor. I personally don't give a damn about automotive tradition, for the M3 or any other car, so bolting some other powerplant in there that would make more power without additional weight is just fine with me. Of course, it would change the complexion of the car, but for me, so what? You'd lose that wonderful M3 sound, for example, but you'd pick up that wonderful Vette sound. And so on. I certainly understand the outrage, however. Bruce |
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08-13-2008, 05:13 PM | #86 | ||||||||
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Yes.
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In my opinion, the truly miserable mileage is probably the weakest thing about the car, and it should be an embarrassment to BMW. Quote:
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Our '04 weighed almost exactly 3400 pounds. Are you saying the new one weighs 3400 pounds? If it does, I stand corrected. Bruce Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 08-13-2008 at 11:09 PM.. Reason: Spelling |
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08-13-2008, 06:08 PM | #87 |
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But, but, Bruce, the regular C6 coupe runs 12.4-12.5 @ 115-116mph. You're saying an LS3 engined M3, with 350 lbs more junk in the trunk would be equally fast? I'm just not buying this argument. I think at best an LS3 swap into an M3 would be a break even proposition. Also, if this combination is your idea of an ideal mechanical marriage, why not just cut to the chase and get the C63? Sure, it won't handle quite as well and you will have to live with the automatic, but I think its character would be more in line with what you're after? Or...maybe not; you have pretty peculiar tastes
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08-13-2008, 06:24 PM | #88 | |
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Gearing, as we were generally speaking, would encompass spacing. If you want to sit here and nitpick semantics I suppose we can do that. Now speaking of spacing, I am not sure what you don't get about the SMG with 7 gears being faster as it keeps the motor in that 6-8k rpm range more often than the 6 speed manual does. It is geared shorter with the 7, increasing torque to the wheels at all RPM ranges, rather simple. Ah, so you sold Hondas. Good for you, I am speaking of my friend who had the 2.0 let go on him, THREE TIMES. He eventually got the 2.2 but felt it just did not have the same excitement. Purely subjective, so who is to say who is right or wrong? You can't prove me wrong regarding placing the AMG motor in the E92, so why don't YOU prove it? Logic would dictate the larger motor would require completely different spacing in the engine bay. Either way, it is a stupid suggestion. The only thing that could be embarassing to BMW would be if you were making the engine decisions at M. So I get 20-21 mpg during break in on the highway... boo hoo. As far as the weight, I guess you missed it when I wrote the weight was the same as my E46 M3 SMG. Too big and heavy in your opinion? Compared to... what? It is the LIGHTEST car in its class, but I guess you can never please everyone. |
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