anyone else think the m leans too much?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dogbone

I've also been told by someone who is qualified to talk about these things, that the stock suspension can't provide enough grip for the Hankook R-S3 tires I've been running at the track. I found that comment interesting.
Today should be an exciting day!

Let me guess, this comes from someone who sells aftermarket suspensions...

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Qualified or not, that makes no sense at all.

Originally Posted by Porschefile

+1 that's ridiculous. Now if they said the stock suspension won't work optimally with Grand-Am slicks that's another story.

hehe wow, ok, well I will try to confirm what he said.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by Sauce

One of the biggest mistakes in driving is people focus on how the car reacts to THEM, not how the you react to the CAR. Try slowing down the hands, have better control of brake release, be smoother on the throttle. Usually rough combinations of those three things, brakes-steering-throttle, leads to weight being unnecessarily thrown around. Think of those three things as shifting weight.

With that said, I have a decent amount of seat time in M3's. I agree they do initially feel slightly big, wobbly and understeery. Settle it down though and it is very capable.

Agree with most of your points. OP should fix those 3 things that you mentioned and only after that i would start changing suspension set up. I dont have track seat time in my m3 yet, but when i push it hard on the street (rarely), i feel that it does not roll at all in edc sport mode(all stock). Cornering is as flat or even better than my track car 135i that is on a preatty stiff susp. setup.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Actually this car is as close to neutral of any car that I have driven on track with a real nice balance of slight power on oversteer.My 08 seemed to be quite loose the majority of the time.In steady state cornering,you can control it very easily with very minor steering wheel corrections & throttle control which is great.

Yes! The E9X M3 can be a drift machine when compared to almost every other recent BMW (M or non-M) which the exception of the Z4M and M Coupes.

Honestly, I don't think the dampers and springs are not the weak point. The only upgrade that this car really could use is front camber plates.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Honestly, I don't think the dampers and springs are not the weak point. The only upgrade that this car really could use is front camber plates.

+1 Fully agree

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

Agree with most of your points. OP should fix those 3 things that you mentioned and only after that i would start changing suspension set up. I dont have track seat time in my m3 yet, but when i push it hard on the street (rarely), i feel that it does not roll at all in edc sport mode(all stock). Cornering is as flat or even better than my track car 135i that is on a preatty stiff susp. setup.

It's really, really difficult to perceive body roll in the stock seat due simply to the fact that you are getting thrown around more than the car. Once you're hunkered down and not moving you can really feel the motions of the body and how the suspension is coping. Hold off your judgement on the body roll until you get to the track, street driving doesn't come close. What setup was on your 135? My car isn't extremely stiff but rolls very, very little. It's really low though, the tires are already in the fender. I think my fender is my bumpstop!

All these mid corner pics are AWESOME!!

[Porschefile]

Here's my car at full tilt with stock suspension on PS2's. Doesn't seem so bad to me. I got coilovers not because the stock suspension sucks but because I felt like the modest improvement in performance, along with a better looks (dropped 1"), along with better tire wear, was worth it.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

+1 Fully agree

My car wears the inside of the tires more both F&R at places like WGI where you tend to trail brake quite a bit.At least with the NT05's the stock camber settings seem to be OK.And I am quite aggressive and run in mid teens at WGI.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by Sauce

It's really, really difficult to perceive body roll in the stock seat due simply to the fact that you are getting thrown around more than the car. Once you're hunkered down and not moving you can really feel the motions of the body and how the suspension is coping. Hold off your judgement on the body roll until you get to the track, street driving doesn't come close. What setup was on your 135? My car isn't extremely stiff but rolls very, very little. It's really low though, the tires are already in the fender. I think my fender is my bumpstop!

All these mid corner pics are AWESOME!!

My 135i is on KW3 with swift springs400/800,c.plates -3/-2.2 camber
I know the difference between the track and street driving. But trust me, i can test the car on the street and tell if m3 has body roll or has understeer issues

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sauce

It's really, really difficult to perceive body roll in the stock seat due simply to the fact that you are getting thrown around more than the car. Once you're hunkered down and not moving you can really feel the motions of the body and how the suspension is coping. Hold off your judgement on the body roll until you get to the track, street driving doesn't come close. What setup was on your 135? My car isn't extremely stiff but rolls very, very little. It's really low though, the tires are already in the fender. I think my fender is my bumpstop!

All these mid corner pics are AWESOME!!

Link him to the schroth harness thread, it's loaded with great info and nail biting suspense.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

My car wears the inside of the tires more both F&R at places like WGI where you tend to trail brake quite a bit.At least with the NT05's the stock camber settings seem to be OK.And I am quite aggressive and run in mid teens at WGI.

Odd. I would cord conti scrubs very quickly on the outer shoulder.

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Odd. I would cord conti scrubs very quickly on the outer shoulder.

I had very bad wear on the front on the outsides of PS2's as well with stock camber, at multiple tracks. Although I will say that I think the -2.0 rear I'm running now may be just a tad much, it seems to wear insides too quick. Front is now -2.7, we will see how that goes as far as street/track use.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

My 135i is on KW3 with swift springs400/800,c.plates -3/-2.2 camber
I know the difference between the track and street driving. But trust me, i can test the car on the street and tell if m3 has body roll or has understeer issues

Huh, we have the same setup minus the Swift springs on my part. For a street car I think it's pretty good. The only time I am disappointed with it is after driving an s2000 or something of the like.

That last part scares me!

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Odd. I would cord conti scrubs very quickly on the outer shoulder.

I will try to post pictures tonight of my tires after WGI.

Hoosiers/Continentals Grand Am Cups require a lot more camber to wear properly.Nt05's,Ra1's require a lot less camber for sure.

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Link him to the schroth harness thread, it's loaded with great info and nail biting suspense.

Oh no you didn't! LOL!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

My car wears the inside of the tires more both F&R at places like WGI where you tend to trail brake quite a bit.At least with the NT05's the stock camber settings seem to be OK.And I am quite aggressive and run in mid teens at WGI.

Interesting... it seems that the/your ZCP setup much better controls camber variation under load.

I tend to really wear the outside edges of my front Nitto NT01s. I usually wear more the inside of the tires at the rear so it sort of balances out (Power-on oversteer ) .

However last week at CMP, I corded the outside of one rear tire with plenty of meat left on it . It seems CMP is pretty abrasive, as quite a few in my group of buddies corded tires on that weekend.

I just got my car aligned yesterday and dialed up the front camber to -2.8. I'll test it out this weekend at LCMT .

[Gearhead999s]

As promised here are the pics of my tires after about 3 hours of use at WGI.

Right side RF to the left RR to the right of the pic


Left side LF right side LR left side


These tires have about 10 days on them and were flipped on the rims after 6 days.I expect another 4-6 days use are left on these tires.Remember I run 100% factory camber settings.

Prerequisite shot with my dog Dakota

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

Oh no you didn't! LOL!

Oops...I did it again.

Originally Posted by Porschefile

I had very bad wear on the front on the outsides of PS2's as well with stock camber, at multiple tracks. Although I will say that I think the -2.0 rear I'm running now may be just a tad much, it seems to wear insides too quick. Front is now -2.7, we will see how that goes as far as street/track use.

I run -3.0 at the track. I think its a tad too much since the outer edges are pristine. I haven't taken tire temps though. So -2.7 might be just right.

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

As promised here are the pics of my tires after about 3 hours of use at WGI.

Right side RF to the left RR to the right of the pic


Left side LF right side LR left side


These tires have about 10 days on them and were flipped on the rims after 6 days.I expect another 4-6 days use are left on these tires.Remember I run 100% factory camber settings.

Prerequisite shot with my dog Dakota

You're an animal!

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

You're an animal!

I have heard that more than a few times

[RickyBobby]

The bump stops are what ultimately limits roll on the stock suspension. It takes approx 500lb springs up front to keep our cars off of the bump stops.
Roll isn't necessarily a bad thing either. As gearhead mentioned, more compliant setups can generate more grip than overly stiff setups. I didn't have any complaints of roll when my car was stock. Of course my ast's are better but they still produce enough roll on hoosiers to generate stupid amounts of grip and control.

[leo95se]

this is turning into a fun thread!

so after this weekend, i obviously agree my driving needs work - its humbling to be passed by a (quite modded) e30 m3, but also interesting to see where i cant keep up due to roll. i do agree getting tossed around plays a big part in perception. my knees are bruised from bracing myself!

also, my tires were beat to crap, 2 weekends out of them. so, in addition to 'roll', less than ideal camber plays into this, i believe. i am thinking camber plates are really needed. doubt they will help much with roll, but should get the car a bit more settled.

ill get some pics from tracktimephotos up, but here is a quick teaser vid.

[von_zoom]

my knees are bruised from bracing myself!

I have been using knee pads for some time now to prevent soreness (or at least limit it) plus I drape a foam rubber sheet over the seat. Between the two, the factor seat belt keeps me somewhat stable in the car, but less than satifactory. I still have to use my hands and arms to help stablize my body.
I have considered changing seats and installing a roll bar to have a five point system, but I do not want to change the car due to resell soon.
vz