Can BMW tune any more power out of the M3 motor?

[adc]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Actually the E36 got a new motor. Although, power remained basically the same and suspension, brakes, and other performance related components also remained the same as well (just as they have for other generations).

That's not true for the Euro motor, which went from 286HP to 321HP.

And I believe the 96+ US cars had slightly different suspension tuning (by the accounts I've heard a little softer, although if that's true the differences were certainly minor).

Then the E46 had the CSL with more HP. I know BMW apparently shelved plans for the E92 CSL, but they may decide to bring it on if necessary - or at least the small power hikes from that (stillborn) model.

Eh, anyway. Plenty of power for me. Or maybe just another 40-50BHP to make it perfect.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by footie

I'm going to say something that my surprise some of you but if the RS5 was better than the M3 then how would it be better? I mean will the RS5 dramatically improve on the M3 is terms of handling, personally I doubt it, I also doubt it will be dramatically quicker if the engine choice remains the V8 N/A. The only thing is will have is a newer design both inside and out, probably better suspension options and I guess the DCT will be better thought through.

I would tend to agree footie. I think it is very likely that, if things go as rumored, the RS5 will not be a bigger leap over the current M3 than the RS4 was over the last M3. The biggest concern for BMW might be that Audi is doing a coupe this time round (no RS4 sedan planned, according to rumor), since the coupe form factor is the biggest seller of the three M3 body styles and is one big thing that the M3 had over the last RS4 and most other competitors for that matter.

In my opinion if Audi tricked everyone with the engine and fit something forced induction that is smaller and lighter yet more powerful...

I still give that 4L TFSI V8 an outside shot. Supposedly it will make about 400hp in the upcoming S7. But they could surely get a lot more than that similar to what M has done with the N63 -> S63 (407hp -> 555hp).

Originally Posted by adc

That's not true for the Euro motor, which went from 286HP to 321HP.

True - I should have mentioned that the Euro car did indeed get more power. That was the whole point of the new motor I guess. It's just that in the US it had to remain restricted to 240hp (IIRC) probably due to regulatory compliance.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I would tend to agree footie. I think it is very likely that, if things go as rumored, the RS5 will not be a bigger leap over the current M3 than the RS4 was over the last M3. The biggest concern for BMW might be that Audi is doing a coupe this time round (no RS4 sedan planned, according to rumor), since the coupe form factor is the biggest seller of the three M3 body styles and is one big thing that the M3 had over the last RS4 and most other competitors for that matter.

Audi never sell in the kind of numbers that BMW look from their M3 models so it won't be from sales that BMW will be concerned with. I reckon press reviews and ultimately public perception will be BMW's biggest concern, being second best from the remainder of the M3's life cycle we stick in their throat and could affect the image of the M for quite some while.

I still give that 4L TFSI V8 an outside shot. Supposedly it will make about 400hp in the upcoming S7. But they could surely get a lot more than that similar to what M has done with the N63 -> S63 (407hp -> 555hp).

That engine choice would leave the RS5 with a handling characteristics very similar to the RS6, i.e. quicker than the M5 everywhere but still not a driver's car. I reckon if Audi have made a change from the 4.2FSI it will be to move downwards to the V6TFSI or the 2.5TFSI from the TT, both engines can comfortably produce more than 430hp yet give much more torque than the N/A could ever dream of.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by footie

If it does produce more torque to the wheels over the entire rev range then I'm a dutch man because to me at least the S4 and 335i both feel far stronger below 3k and on part throttle than my M ever did.

Yes, stock vs. stock, it does have more torque at the hubs at full throttle at over 2000 rpm as measured by the same chassis dyno utilizing the same steady-state procedure and correction standards (published data by rri). You are most likely correct that the part throttle responses of the two engines will be rather different. That thread was 14 pages long, and that was pretty much the main outcome of that discussion. If you want to feel the torque in the M3, you do need to floor the damn pedal. If you move to the M3 from the 335, you will be used to part throttle delivery of the turbo car, and will most likely think that the M3 has less torque and so on. I've driven the 335 and the 535 for extended periods of time, and I can see how one would think that.

[footie]

Originally Posted by lucid

Yes, stock vs. stock, it does have more torque at the hubs at full throttle at over 2000 rpm as measured by the same chassis dyno utilizing the same steady-state procedure and correction standards (published data by rri). You are most likely correct that the part throttle responses of the two engines will be rather different. That thread was 14 pages long, and that was pretty much the main outcome of that discussion. If you want to feel the torque in the M3, you do need to floor the damn pedal. If you move to the M3 from the 335, you will be used to part throttle delivery of the turbo car, and will most likely think that the M3 has less torque and so on. I've driven the 335 and the 535 for extended periods of time, and I can see how one would think that.

Well the question is, which way do you drive most of the time. Me I felt the M3 was lacking torque so I suppose I was mainly a part thottle kind of a guy. Funny thing is I've driven the C63 and didn't feel short changed there.

Now I for me at least the next M3 will be a revelation, probably it's best ever version.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by footie

Well the question is, which way do you drive most of the time. Me I felt the M3 was lacking torque so I suppose I was mainly a part thottle kind of a guy. Funny thing is I've driven the C63 and didn't feel short changed there.

The answer to your question depends on if you are willing to depress the pedal or not, which is my point. You just need to get used to driving it that way. There is nothing keeping you from depressing the pedal but you. So, if I want torque, I floor it; that's how I drive. If, for whatever reason, you don't want to, then sure, get the other car.

The only real drawback to flooring it to feel the torque is the noise the car makes at WOT. It does attract a bunch of unwanted attention on the street. Seriously. The cabin is too insulated, so you don't really hear it, but others do. I'll give you that...

[graider]

Originally Posted by lucid

The answer to your question depends on if you are willing to depress the pedal or not, which is my point. You just need to get used to driving it that way. There is nothing keeping you from depressing the pedal but you. So, if I want torque, I floor it; that's how I drive. If, for whatever reason, you don't want to, then sure, get the other car.

The only real drawback to flooring it to feel the torque is the noise the car makes at WOT. It does attract a bunch of unwanted attention on the street. Seriously. The cabin is too insulated, so you don't really hear it, but others do. I'll give you that...

i'm sure many would prefer to floor it. isn't that why we buy these cars for? If not for this reason, i would rather buy something more economical like a civic or accord.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by The J-Man

Is the motor maxed out on HP and TQ, or do you think BMW could make some factory tunes to boost it up a bit? With the new RS4 rumored at 450 HP, and the new S4 surpassing the 335i, will BMW have to trail Audi in the HP wars until the next generation, or are some mid life cycle power bumps possible? Thoughts?

Well, the Dinan mods shows more power is possible. But agree w/ the earlier posts: not much more if keeping the S65 clean and reliable is a goal.

RE the RS4, rumour has it that the RS5 (which looks to make ~ 450 as you say) is going to 'kill' a B8 RS4 w/ V8.

Audi, likes BMW wants to start signaling more efficiency (hence 4.2L V8 S4 -> the Supercharged 6 in latest) so wouldn't be at all surprised if the next RS4 went DI + FI + 6 either.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

414hp == 420ps. The euro spec is PS, the US spec is HP. Once you do the conversion, they are equal to each other.

Just so.

[footie]

I've learned something a couple of days ago and had it confirmed but you don't know how true that Audi has pulled ahead. The RS5 will be running an improved version of the RS4's 4.2L FSI and will actually out rev the M3 as well, won't an exact figure I'm guessing 8,400~8,500rpm possibly even higher. Indications are the lap time has broken the 8 minute mark for the ring, how much by Audi are keeping close to their chest but it appears that the M3 has been superceeded at top dog. No official acceleration figures only indications which are 4.4s @ 100km/h from the DSG and 10s more to cover the next 100km/h.

So the question is will this be a big enough gap for BMW to consider improving the E90~3 M3 or possibly pull the new model forward a year or so. Either way this should insure the next M3 will be a blinder.

[adc]

Originally Posted by footie

So the question is will this be a big enough gap for BMW to consider improving the E90~3 M3 or possibly pull the new model forward a year or so. Either way this should insure the next M3 will be a blinder.

I highly doubt it:
- It has about 2 years or less left in the production cycle
- If previous cases are any indication, the RS5 will cost at least $15-20k more, thus not making it a quite direct competitor

Perhaps BMW will bring out the CSL, or a lightened version of some sort - although even this is highly unlikely IMO.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by footie

I've learned something a couple of days ago and had it confirmed but you don't know how true that Audi has pulled ahead. The RS5 will be running an improved version of the RS4's 4.2L FSI and will actually out rev the M3 as well, won't an exact figure I'm guessing 8,400~8,500rpm possibly even higher. Indications are the lap time has broken the 8 minute mark for the ring, how much by Audi are keeping close to their chest but it appears that the M3 has been superceeded at top dog. No official acceleration figures only indications which are 4.4s @ 100km/h from the DSG and 10s more to cover the next 100km/h.

So the question is will this be a big enough gap for BMW to consider improving the E90~3 M3 or possibly pull the new model forward a year or so. Either way this should insure the next M3 will be a blinder.

Yep, the RS5 will have the 4.2L FSI and 450 PS (Germany). BMW likely won't touch the E9x M3 though.


Best regards,
south

[footie]

Originally Posted by southlight

Yep, the RS5 will have the 4.2L FSI and 450 PS (Germany). BMW likely won't touch the E9x M3 though.


Best regards,
south

That's my opinion too, the only thing is not known is how it will be received, if it's extremely favourable then BMW may bring out a competition package like the M6 got but if it's not offering the M3's levels of involvement even if it blows it away on pure figures then there will be no need.

Frankly I think it will be something in between that, closer to the M3 than ever before but not dramatically quicker than the M3, sort of the TT-RS vs M3 but in reverse.

[Serious]

The e36 got a different engine due to the switch from obd1 to obd2... every model in the lineup got a displacement bump.

The e9x will not get a new engine until its production life is over. That's just how bmw does things.

If you guys would get over looking at peak torque number and understand that the area under the graph and then factor in gearing and the actual wheel torque the m3 produces is on par with v8 cars with much higher peak torque numbers.

[gr8000]

Originally Posted by seriousm3

If you guys would get over looking at peak torque number and understand that the area under the graph and then factor in gearing and the actual wheel torque the m3 produces is on par with v8 cars with much higher peak torque numbers.

+1 very well said