Why do you not track?

[ManAndMachine]

Originally Posted by stuka

Actually, newbs go through tires and pads a lot faster than guys in faster groups, because newbs have no idea what smooth means. I have seen plenty of newbs back in the day with brand new E46 M3's chewed up the outer edge of their OEM tires after two days of Button Willow with ashed pads and blued rotors.

When you are not smooth, you spend a lot of times braking, making large steering inputs, etc, and etc, and you put a lot more wear on your car.

I will not be tracking the E90 M3 that I ordered because it is too heavy with inadequate brakes. Yes, I did order it with no sunroof, cloth/leather manual seats, but that's out of necessity, since for a 6'2" guy with 32 inseam, it is not possible to sit in proper driving position with sunroof and power seats.

I have tracked my E46 M3, E30 325is, 996 Turbo, and 996 GT2 in the listed chronological order. And the car with the cheapest tracking cost was the GT2. It weighs 3350 with 190 pounds of me in the car and a full tank of fuel. And since Porsche brakes actually do work on the track (they dissipate heat a lot better, and they have proper airflow management), I didn't even have to bring any tools or spare pads to the track. For example, I drove the GT2 to Sears Point with a bag of clothes and toiletry, I drove on the track, and I drove home.

Tracking modern BMW's are an expensive proposition. The cars are much too heavy, the brakes are much too inadequate for the weight due to lack of airflow management and the poorly designed open caliper single piston system. Stock pads and tires in modern BMW's are just not able to handle western US tracks in the summer in a cost effective manner. To be fair, it is nice to see BMW acknowledging the brake deficiencies by fitting decent brakes in the M3 GTS, 1M, and F10 M5.

Smoothness can mitigate tire and pad wear, but the heft will still wear them faster than a lighter car with proper brakes. Yes, you get free replacements. But trust me, if you are not careful and you blued the rotors and ashed the pads (did that after my newb inaugural track event in the E46 M3 back in summer 2002), your dealers will not give you free pads and rotors because you "abused" your car. I always chuckle when I see guys in BMW futzing with their cars while waiting for their session under the hot summer sun in Button Willow, while guys with P cars (even lowly Coxsters) sit under the shade and relax.

OK, how about oldie BMW's? Not so good either in hot track, fine in places like Laguna Seca and Sears Point in the fall (been there with the E30 325is and the E46 M3). I put on a new set of OEM pads on my E30 325is and went to a Button Willow 2 day event in August in fast group. By the 3rd session of second day, I got the sensor light to come on.

It is much cheaper to track a new or used modern P car for this reason. Like say, a used 996 GT3, than any modern BMW of equivalent cost. The comparison might not be fair, but to the guy paying the 55K who wants to track, the choice is clear. And they will also make you better drivers, since they will not mask your mistakes like the E46 M3. I remember a seasoned instructor took his then brand new 996 GT3 for an inaugural run and promptly spun at the bus stop at Button Willow. The sledgehammer weight distribution forces you to be more intune with the car than the 50/50 setup car like BMW's.

Someday when my kids are old enough where we don't need two sedans (E39 M5 and E90 M3), I will get back to tracking, in a GT2 or a GT3 again. In the meantime, I will enjoy reasonable handling and speed shuttling my family in the E39 M5 and the E90 M3.

Sure there are people that go out there blind and think they know it all with something to prove..these are same examples you have witnessed and I'm sure other track regulars have as well.General rule of thumb before hitting the ski slopes as a newb would be to get some instruction and training beforehand? I was a newb at one point back in 2005 in an e46m3 and I never shredded tires or dusted brakes,because I used some of the training that was available before really starting to push the car.It's not rocket science,learn as you go just like everything else in life.There is no rush,learn/improve your skills at your pace,it's not a race.Simple right? If you've got questions there are people all around you willing to help at the track,instructors that will spend time with you in the car and give you pointers on your lines,braking points,etc..

Bottom line is this,If I'm gonna go out and buy a 60K car that was developed around the ''Ring'',I'm not just doing it to look cool around my friends.I would like to explore what it has in store and the best place to do that is the race track.Period.

[aus]

stuka's going to scare away all the newbs. He's coming from someone who's obvious faster than what the stock brakes can do.

And if you're burning through the stock brakes as a newb... you're driving pretty irresponsibly, IMO. Many people have gone out in the E9x M3 for the first time and had no brake issues. It's when you start to get pretty fast is when the brakes will be inadequate.
.

[aus]

Anyone who's thinking of going to a track, this was a good handout my friend sent me.
Check out page 5 about the full throttle before the apex.

.

[Seattle S65B40]

Originally Posted by sl1981

lots of damn good info in that PDF. will print and read at home.

Definitely some good ish right there. "Early apexers make great landscapers." haha

[Manifold]

Originally Posted by aus

Anyone who's thinking of going to a track, this was a good handout my friend sent me.
Check out page 5 about the full throttle before the apex.

.

Thanks, just finished reading it. Very good document!

[OC3]

Originally Posted by aus

Anyone who's thinking of going to a track, this was a good handout my friend sent me.
Check out page 5 about the full throttle before the apex.

.

Thanks for posting this, bud.

[skierman64]

Reading a lot of these responses (excuses) makes me sad. I've been tracking since '96 and I got more serious about it in '04. Now I'm an instructor. I can honestly say that you won't get a better bang for your buck than the ~$200 a day spent at a BMWCCA driving school. You get an in-car instructor for the entire event, dedicated to you. I can't remember a time where a novice damaged his car at the track. With the exception of a little bit of extra tire wear everything else is covered under the BMW bumper to bumper plan (if you're under 50K miles)

There's no better way to learn how to really drive your car quickly and safely.

Here's a video of me at Heartland Park, KS last month to get you motivated.

PS. People really get tired after a 100 mile drive?

[///My5UV]

Originally Posted by skierman64

PS. People really get tired after a 100 mile drive?

LOL... yeah, that and 40 miles being too far away

Maybe somebody that can't drive a nice, cushy BMW for an hour or two on the highway with air conditioning really shouldn't go to the track... of course I kinda think that sort of person probably shouldn't be driving themselves anywhere anyway

[aus]

Originally Posted by OC3

Thanks for posting this, bud.

Now get out on the track!!!
I know you got to work and pay bills, but think of it as "my time" which is what I tell the wife since she has everything she needs and 90% of what she wants.

Originally Posted by skierman64

Reading a lot of these responses (excuses) makes me sad. I've been tracking since '96 and I got more serious about it in '04. Now I'm an instructor. I can honestly say that you won't get a better bang for your buck than the ~$200 a day spent at a BMWCCA driving school. You get an in-car instructor for the entire event, dedicated to you. I can't remember a time where a novice damaged his car at the track. With the exception of a little bit of extra tire wear everything else is covered under the BMW bumper to bumper plan (if you're over 50K miles)

There's no better way to learn how to really drive your car quickly and safely.

Here's a video of me at Heartland Park, KS last month to get you motivated.

PS. People really get tired after a 100 mile drive?

Unfortunately, it's more in Cali but still way worth it, IMO.

Originally Posted by sl1981

hmmm, on page 5 it says "B. Brake Point - A fixed point where brakes are applied. To change B, so do by changing A. All your braking should be completed by point B. (unless you are trail braking)."

Shouldnt that read "all your breaking should be completed by point C?

Point C in that PDF is the turn-in point

My understanding is, the B--> C time is to let the car settle before turn in. I've been told to add some throttle a little earlier, but it's the full throttle before apex I just can't get myself to do yet.

.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by aus

Now get out on the track!!!
I know you got to work and pay bills, but think of it as "my time" which is what I tell the wife since she has everything she needs and 90% of what she wants.

He's coming on the 9th

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by aus

Unfortunately, it's more in Cali but still way worth it, IMO.

The Cali clubs have a different business model. In order to get instructors to volunteer the clubs have to pay for their hotel rooms. But then again in Cali the instructors do not get their own run group and have to drive with the students.

Almost everywhere else in the US the clubs give the instructors their own run group (track time) but the instructors pay for all their own expenses (including rooms).

For me, I'd gladly pay for my own room in exchange for track time (unincumbered by students).

[applebook]

Track? I'd take a fast cart on a track any day over most road cars not branded Ferrari, Koenigsegg, etc..

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by applebook

Track? I'd take a fast cart on a track any day over most road cars not branded Ferrari, Koenigsegg, etc..

I think if you tracked your car you'd be pleasantly surprised what it can do.

The problem with tracking the cars you mention is the limits are so high (as well as the price) that most drivers don't learn much about driving dynamics/limits.

[signes]

Originally Posted by applebook

Track? I'd take a fast cart on a track any day over most road cars not branded Ferrari, Koenigsegg, etc..

kart...

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by I Love My Car

I had to register just for this.

Why do I not track my car? Because it's expensive to do so. It has nothing to do with being able to afford the car, I could afford 3 of them easily, but tracking here in tri state area costs a lot of money.

a) you go for HDPEs that are hosted by BMWCCA or other clubs, which cost at a minimum $400 per day and that's just you sitting in a car with another person (unless you have done this for 5 years and you are expert), its not like you in a race track driving the shit out of your car the way you want (without dangering others obviously). At most you'll do 5-6 laps and that'll be all.

Please contact me if you are interested in tracking. All the NorthEast BMWCCA chapters have track days for $175-$225 a day. In fact the NJ chapter has an end of season special that only costs $150 for a one day school. You'll get nearly 2 hours of track time with an instructor for that price. It's a great inexpensive way to get your feet wet.

http://www.njbmwcca.org/services/sch...p?event_id=290

Originally Posted by aus

I did a 1 day M school out at Fontana for $1,000. IMO, it SUCKED BALLS compared to the local CCA events. Total waste of money.

.

I love hearing that.

Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08

I don't track because they closed it. Now waiting on a buyer to buy Gateway

Me too, it's 15 miles from my house. But there are 6 more tracks within a 6 hour drive to StL.

[stuka]

Thunderhill was my limit on how far I was willing to drive to a track.

Sears Point from LA is the sweet spot. Not too long, not too short, plenty of great restaurants nearby for the then gf and now wife, decent hotel (Inn Marin) and a great track to boot. Ditch work early Thursday and drive up and check in to Inn Marin, go do wine tasting on Friday, drive on Sears Point on Saturday and Sunday, more wine tasting in Paso Robles on the way home. Awesomeness.

Thunderhill is in the middle of nowhere, the food sucks, the cafeteria food on the track sucks even more, the hotel is terrible, the drive takes forever. The track is fun, but it was not 2 extra hours drive more fun than Sears Point.

[stuka]

Originally Posted by skierman64

The Cali clubs have a different business model. In order to get instructors to volunteer the clubs have to pay for their hotel rooms. But then again in Cali the instructors do not get their own run group and have to drive with the students.

Almost everywhere else in the US the clubs give the instructors their own run group (track time) but the instructors pay for all their own expenses (including rooms).

For me, I'd gladly pay for my own room in exchange for track time (unincumbered by students).

Yeah, and the one Laguna Seca school I went to back in mid 2000 almost didn't happen because the organizer who shall remain nameless despite many warnings from instructors overbooked students and could not fit any instructors on the track within the 25 car per session limit. They ended up cutting one session per day for students and making it into a demo session for instructors each day to finally got the thing to not fall apart.

The instructors can only run in A and B group, makes it a lot of fun for the A and B students to see what they can do and to check out the instructors' line in real time.

[stuka]

Originally Posted by motortrend

The problem with track driving is that in the incident of a crash, maybe not even cause by you, the insurance probably won't cover it. Now say you are going over the speed limit on the highway and you crash, it will probably cover that, even though it was an unsafe environment.

You just need your insurance policy to be reviewed by a competent lawyer, once.

If he gives you the go ahead, great. If not, find another one that doesn't exclude driving on racing surface.

Not a big deal.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by aus

Now get out on the track!!!
I know you got to work and pay bills, but think of it as "my time" which is what I tell the wife since she has everything she needs and 90% of what she wants..

I think you may be confused with my reply on another/older thread (that CCA event on Friday about a month ago?) as to why I can't/won't go to weekday events.

I've been going to track days on the weekends - Streets of Willow, Big Willow, etc. And, Button Willow coming up on July 9th.

Originally Posted by persian54

He's coming on the 9th

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by stuka

Thunderhill was my limit on how far I was willing to drive to a track.

Sears Point from LA is the sweet spot. Not too long, not too short, plenty of great restaurants nearby for the then gf and now wife, decent hotel (Inn Marin) and a great track to boot. Ditch work early Thursday and drive up and check in to Inn Marin, go do wine tasting on Friday, drive on Sears Point on Saturday and Sunday, more wine tasting in Paso Robles on the way home. Awesomeness.

Thunderhill is in the middle of nowhere, the food sucks, the cafeteria food on the track sucks even more, the hotel is terrible, the drive takes forever. The track is fun, but it was not 2 extra hours drive more fun than Sears Point.

I sorta agree with this assessment especially from someone driving from LA. There are still epic amounts of rocks that can destroy your paint and windshield but the facility has improved quite a bit and the track was repaved in late 08.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by applebook

Track? I'd take a fast Kart on a track any day over most road cars not branded Ferrari, Koenigsegg, etc..

Indeed...even cars like the M3 are going to feel relatively slow and cumbersome, especially on a wide open track where even 130mph can feel like you could get out and run faster....when compared to a race Kart which accelerates far quicker and easily pulls >2g cornering on slicks.

Originally Posted by skierman64

I think if you tracked your car you'd be pleasantly surprised what it can do.

Its most definitely fun and its surely a good venue for newbie drivers to explore their cars limits...although I would have to question whether anyone should be buying a >400bhp road car if don't already have the skills to drive it quickly and safely.

[midlifecrisis]

Thanks for correcting the misinformation about cost of BMWCCA Driver Schools, Skierman. I think the OP of this information would be pleasantly surprised after participating in a BMWCCA Driver School. It's the best way to see what your M3 will do in a controlled environment, and the instruction is fantastic. $400 is the cost of most two day schools here in the East, and most people feel they get plenty of track time.

Originally Posted by skierman64

Please contact me if you are interested in tracking. All the NorthEast BMWCCA chapters have track days for $175-$225 a day. In fact the NJ chapter has a end of season special that only costs $150 for a one day school. You'll get nearly 2 hours of track time with an instructor for that price. It's a great inexpensive way to get your feet wet.

http://www.njbmwcca.org/services/sch...p?event_id=290



I love hearing that.



Me too, it's 15 miles from my house. But there are 6 more tracks within a 6 hour drive to StL.