BBK / Track brake set up advice needed!

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by JAJ

10 years of HPDE's with Stoptech, AP Racing (I introduced this forum to AP Racing brakes for the E92M3 back in 2009) and Brembo. Over the years I've run street pads and full race pads (PFC and Pagid) and the only hard-to-modulate experience I ever had was when I tried a set of Hawk DTC60's last year, and even they weren't particularly bad. I just finished taking the factory 380mm Brembo's off my GT500 and installing Stoptech 355's to give me more pad and rim size options. Getting these things to work perfectly isn't brain surgery.

All that said, what pads are you using?

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Yeah, I agree with John (JAJ), there's definitely something going on with your setup and/or in your brake system. I have had the Stoptech BBK on my E39 M5 now for 7 years, and it was a significant improvement in brake feel and especially modulation ability compared to the stock setup. With PFC01s installed and running on a sticky R-comp (BFG R1), application is smooth and progressive with excellent modulation. This is with the ST40 front calipers btw.

(not that it matters, but I've been an instructor for almost 30 years now although I long ago quit HPDE instructing once cars started showing up with huge power, no interest in it any longer...besides, instructing autox and the local national level competition in autocross is a lot of fun.)

That's interesting thanks guys for the comments. I thought everything was 100% so I'll have them looked at.

I'm running the StopTech street pads for both the street and track.

[bk_g80_m3]

Wow so I'm torn again. Some of you guys make really good arguments for fluid/lines/pads instead of a bbk.

I have some thinking to do!

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

That's interesting thanks guys for the comments. I thought everything was 100% so I'll have them looked at.

I'm running the StopTech street pads for both the street and track.

They're great pads - I use them for daily driving. Bite is the level of initial friction when you hit the pedal, and these pads have a lot of "bite" and that's probably why you feel the off-on snap when they apply. Bite is a personal preference, but for race pads, lower bite gives you more control.

The long pedal sounds like air in the system somewhere, maybe in the ABS/DSC pump. There are lots of ways to get air in the pump when you have the brake system opened up for an install. Unfortunately, there's only one way to get it out. That involves getting a dealer (or someone with the necessary diagnostic computer tools to cycle the DSC control computer) to re-bleed your brakes.

You've got a great setup and you should have a firm pedal slightly higher than stock with good progression and a smooth off to on transition.

For the track, I'd try a set of full race pads. They generally have lower bite than the Stoptech crossover pads and they'll be more linear in application. If you get this right, you'll be amazed at how the braking works.

[skxf430]

For a beginner or intermediate, pads and fluids are more than enough.

An excellent pad for both street and track are the Endless MX72's. They work well for a heavy car with ABS and should you need a little more bite, step to the ME20's. I have found Endless pads are quiet enough for the street, and are fairly rotor friendly as well. The are certainly not cheap but they seem to last longer than most. Also, Endless RF650 fluid has an excellent wet boiling point and gives you a very firm pedal too.

If you don't know about Endless, just google it and see how many Porsche Cup cars are switching over to Endless pads.

[Foozed]

Originally Posted by fjork_duf

Wow so I'm torn again. Some of you guys make really good arguments for fluid/lines/pads instead of a bbk.

I have some thinking to do!

Same here too.. I was almost convinced I needed to drop the money on at least a Front BBK so I could enjoy the 5-6 HPDE days I do a year and remain safe (having brakes = more safety).

I've not yet had the car out to VIR yet to know if I need more than lines/fluid/pads..

decisions decisions...

It's only money I suppose.

[CSBM5]

As long as you use good and fresh fluid, something like PFC01 race pads *and* use Ti shims between the pad backing plate and piston, you should be good to go for even very high level driving with R-comps. The Ti shim works wonders in interrupting the heat transfer path from the backing plate to the piston. It also shields the piston dust cover from "seeing" the hot backing plate from a radiation heat transfer point of view. I've used them for years with great success including on my Stoptech BBK.

The Ti shims become especially important as pad thickness is worn down. The pad material is a fantastic insulator, so as it wears down the backing plate temperature goes up (and up and up with more wear) and the heat transfer to the piston of course goes up. From 1/2 worn and on down, Ti shims become indispensable for saving piston dust covers and reducing heat transfer into the piston and therefore fluid.

[STi_traitor]

Street/Track Pads, SS Lines and Fluid (Castrol SRF)

Like others have said here, don't waste money on a BBK at this moment, the M3 OEM calipers are very reliable. I have decided after a good season at the Nurburgring to stick with OEM calipers and the above I mentioned. Save the money for more track experience (laps).

[bk_g80_m3]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

Street/Track Pads, SS Lines and Fluid (Castrol SRF)

Like others have said here, don't waste money on a BBK at this moment, the M3 OEM calipers are very reliable. I have decided after a good season at the Nurburgring to stick with OEM calipers and the above I mentioned. Save the money for more track experience (laps).

Out of curiosity how often do you go through a set of pads and rotors.

Also to others: how many people have the dealer change the fluid so they can cycle the ABS system or whatever to get the fluid out of that system? It doesn't seem that everyone worries about that here. Otherwise you'd mix your SRF with whatever crap BMW uses stock. Not sure if that matters or not.

EDIT: What is a good place to order the PFC01s?

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by fjork_duf

Out of curiosity how often do you go through a set of pads and rotors.

Also to others: how many people have the dealer change the fluid so they can cycle the ABS system or whatever to get the fluid out of that system? It doesn't seem that everyone worries about that here. Otherwise you'd mix your SRF with whatever crap BMW uses stock. Not sure if that matters or not.

EDIT: What is a good place to order the PFC01s?

It's hard to say how much I go through. I have fairly new front rotors installed and the original rears. I also have fairly new Ferodo 2500 pads on. I will let you know after the season how well it went. I know this is a ways out but its the best I can do.

In the end I can promise you that a BBK is a huge waste of money for you. The V class (production cars) in the 24hr Nurburgring use stock calipers with upgraded lines, pads and I believe rotors from what I saw last year. These cars are nearly production level with of course a cage and gutted as much as possible for weight.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

It's hard to say how much I go through. I have fairly new front rotors installed and the original rears. I also have fairly new Ferodo 2500 pads on. I will let you know after the season how well it went. I know this is a ways out but its the best I can do.

In the end I can promise you that a BBK is a huge waste of money for you. The V class (production cars) in the 24hr Nurburgring use stock calipers with upgraded lines, pads and I believe rotors from what I saw last year. These cars are nearly production level with of course a cage and gutted as much as possible for weight.

You're right, of course. But there's a big difference between racing and track days. If the rules for your racing class call for factory brakes, then you'll run factory brakes and you'll manage them so they last for the race. So will everyone else in that class that you're competing against.

Track days are more like an unlimited racing class, and how drivers use their brakes is a choice that each driver makes - some are easy on them and some are not. Unsurprisingly, many are hard on their brakes and a BBK makes it safer for them and the cars around them. I like that.

[aus]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

As long as you use good and fresh fluid, something like PFC01 race pads *and* use Ti shims between the pad backing plate and piston, you should be good to go for even very high level driving with R-comps. The Ti shim works wonders in interrupting the heat transfer path from the backing plate to the piston. It also shields the piston dust cover from "seeing" the hot backing plate from a radiation heat transfer point of view. I've used them for years with great success including on my Stoptech BBK.

The Ti shims become especially important as pad thickness is worn down. The pad material is a fantastic insulator, so as it wears down the backing plate temperature goes up (and up and up with more wear) and the heat transfer to the piston of course goes up. From 1/2 worn and on down, Ti shims become indispensable for saving piston dust covers and reducing heat transfer into the piston and therefore fluid.

Do you only use the Ti backing plate when the pads have worn down to 50%?

For the OP, another consideration would be to add some ducts to the wheel well.

.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by aus

Do you only use the Ti backing plate when the pads have worn down to 50%?

For the OP, another consideration would be to add some ducts to the wheel well.

.

Nope, I use them all the time. For sliding calipers, at least one company makes them with slots so that they will slide on around the spring clip for the inside pad.

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by JAJ

You're right, of course. But there's a big difference between racing and track days. If the rules for your racing class call for factory brakes, then you'll run factory brakes and you'll manage them so they last for the race. So will everyone else in that class that you're competing against.

Track days are more like an unlimited racing class, and how drivers use their brakes is a choice that each driver makes - some are easy on them and some are not. Unsurprisingly, many are hard on their brakes and a BBK makes it safer for them and the cars around them. I like that.

When upgrading to a BBK in my opinion you are doing so because of pushing your braking system past its potential when it comes to cooling and longevity. For most you are not really pushing your brake system to its maximum potential, especially with tracks in the states. Most think that they are overworking their brake systems but they really are not, especially with upgraded sections. Also, you mention how most are hard on their brakes. If they are hard on the brakes having a BBK will not help them to understand that they are improperly using their brakes but to simply blind them into thinking that they are performing well. Most of this is a brain game until you can truly fine tune your driving skills.

When I speak of production car classes in the 24hr Nurburgring they are truly pushing their brake systems to the limit but with having upgraded parts such as SS lines, pads, rotors and fluid they are able to keep it at a sustainable level. This is with of course 24 hours of punishment. If a stock system can take 24 hours of pure punishment with upgraded parts then a regular "track" driver will keep his brake system within a sustainable level of cooling with those same aftermarket additions.

I am not arguing that a BBK is NOT good for the our car but the OEM system is great and most don't think or understand that it is.


To the OP, when you become a skilled driver you will know that you need to upgrade your braking system to a BBK. If it was me I would take the smart route with upgrading what I have mentioned before. If you have come to realize that your needing a bigger system for cooling and brake force because you are going so fast that you need a much greater braking force then by all means get a BBK. If you want to waste money and buy a BBK because you will feel better with it then do so as well, its your money. I know a few people that do this but I can guarantee you that this does not help them to be a better driver on the track but to have a much lighter wallet upgrading parts they don't need.

[bigjae1976]

I'll bring the cost equation. SRF, IMO, is like longer lasting Motul. Since I bleed my own brakes, I use Motul. If I paid someone, I would put in SRF and leave it for a year.

OEM brakes do not meet 3 of the 5 criteria you listed (easy pad changes, pad selection, last for 20-30 minute HPDE session). No one NEEDS a BBK. Just like everything else on the car, it is the responsibility of you, the driver, to manage its shortcomings.

If you are going to keep the car and drive it on the track regularly, a BBK can save you money, gray hairs, and frustration over the long run.

Originally Posted by JAJ

Your Stoptech's are not set up properly. Any quality BBK will provide better pedal modulation than stock, and I agree stock is very good on the M3. So if you've got pedal drop and grabbing with Stoptech's, then something's wrong.

Brake pads make a big difference. The ST performance pads do OK but they will glaze when you overheat them and then they will have zero stopping power. Just like any other pad that is not designed for high temperature operation. High temp pads work differently since they grab and "stick" to the rotor where a street pad relies on friction and pressure.

My STs are much less grabby than the OE brakes which were like on/off switches with track pads.

[bk_g80_m3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

OEM brakes do not meet 3 of the 5 criteria you listed (easy pad changes, pad selection, last for 20-30 minute HPDE session). No one NEEDS a BBK. Just like everything else on the car, it is the responsibility of you, the driver, to manage its shortcomings.

See this is where I call into question the pad/fluid swap vs a bbk. It seems that most guys would argue that 20-30 hdpe would be fine with a pad/fluid swap.

I can live with the longer brake pad changing time, it's not that much of a PITA.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by fjork_duf

See this is where I call into question the pad/fluid swap vs a bbk. It seems that most guys would argue that 20-30 hdpe would be fine with a pad/fluid swap.

I can live with the longer brake pad changing time, it's not that much of a PITA.

It depends. I went through a set of PF01s in 2 weekends on the OEM brakes consisting of 20 minute sessions. If you consider that being able to withstand 30 minute sessions, then OEM brakes will work.

I don't. I think the OEM brakes can't handle the horsepower and weight of the car which is evident under threshold braking. But, OEM brakes with track pads and good fluid will work if you manage the brakes. Meaning you don't drive the entire session 10/10ths.

For 30 minutes sessions...the brakes will be the least of your concerns. Cooling will become your top issue.

[bkrM3]

Originally Posted by fjork_duf

See this is where I call into question the pad/fluid swap vs a bbk. It seems that most guys would argue that 20-30 hdpe would be fine with a pad/fluid swap.

I can live with the longer brake pad changing time, it's not that much of a PITA.

Just to chime in as someone who runs in the intermediate group, I did 4 days (2 weekends) toward the end of last season with OEM rotors, motul fluid, goodridge lines and a new set of the Pagid RS-19 (yellow) and RS-7 (black) pad combo sold by Turner. Pads are still in fantastic shape (although I expect the rotors will start to crack before much longer...they're pretty old).

I have a number of events lined up this coming season, so we'll see what my view is at the end of that. I can promise you, however, that at the outset you do not need to spend 4 grand on your brakes.

[bigjae1976]

As you get faster you'll find that you are managing the brakes for more of your 20 minute session. If you just beat them to death your track pads will wear out super fast. So if that is acceptable...then OEM brakes will work.

My PF01s on OE brakes lasted 1.875 weekends. When I did track my E90, the pads lasted 3 weekends with about 50% of the pad left. I think most will agree that a set of high temp pads lasting 1.875 weekends is a good sign that your brakes, as an entire system, are inadequate.

So why keep sinking money into a system that isn't up to far for the demands? Just my $.02.

[bk_g80_m3]

I love this thread.

My current line of thought is that I will probably try lines/pads/fluid because a BBK would bump me to another autox class. Ultimately I would like to stay stock. It also doesn't cost that much to run through one set of pads to see if it's a viable option.

I see votes for Pagid/Performance Friction/Endless/Ferodo DS2500/Stoptech pads.

Anyone try all or most of those and have opinions? I think the ferodos and stoptech I would eliminate right away since they are dual purpose pads. Or are those worth a look?

Because I am lazy SRF is going to be my fluid.

As far as SS lines any guidance there?

Since I have never used track pads I have a relatively dumb question: in regular around town driving are track pads dangerous? Is it easy to figure out how much longer my stopping distance will be? I just don't want to throw them on the car then bang into stuff on the freeway or around town.

[bk_g80_m3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

As you get faster you'll find that you are managing the brakes for more of your 20 minute session. If you just beat them to death your track pads will wear out super fast. So if that is acceptable...then OEM brakes will work.

My PF01s on OE brakes lasted 1.875 weekends. When I did track my E90, the pads lasted 3 weekends with about 50% of the pad left. I think most will agree that a set of high temp pads lasting 1.875 weekends is a good sign that your brakes, as an entire system, are inadequate.

So why keep sinking money into a system that isn't up to far for the demands? Just my $.02.

What track(s) do you drive? And what class at the HDPE? Can you describe your tracking?

[r53s65e90]

See this for pagid vs stop tech.

If you are a beginner you can start with cheap stop tech street performance and upgrade to race pads once you start going through them very quickly. The nice thing is that stop tech seem to handle high temps much better than stock pads (even the brembo stock pads).

Lines don't affect stopping power and feel is IMHO subjective.

You can drive with pagids around town but they are noisy and grab later than street pads, which takes getting used to it. I now have endless me20 race pads on brembo and they are much much quieter and better suited for street use than pagids. I haven't tried them on stock calipers though.

My best setup for the track on stock calipers was: RS19 Motul RBF600 and no SS lines. With brembos I am still using motul RBF600 but also have cooling ducts. My 2c is that before going full on SRF to try motul rbf600.

I am driving the same tracks as you so let me know if you have any other questions.

Originally Posted by fjork_duf

I love this thread.

My current line of thought is that I will probably try lines/pads/fluid because a BBK would bump me to another autox class. Ultimately I would like to stay stock. It also doesn't cost that much to run through one set of pads to see if it's a viable option.

I see votes for Pagid/Performance Friction/Endless/Ferodo DS2500/Stoptech pads.

Anyone try all or most of those and have opinions? I think the ferodos and stoptech I would eliminate right away since they are dual purpose pads. Or are those worth a look?

Because I am lazy SRF is going to be my fluid.

As far as SS lines any guidance there?

Since I have never used track pads I have a relatively dumb question: in regular around town driving are track pads dangerous? Is it easy to figure out how much longer my stopping distance will be? I just don't want to throw them on the car then bang into stuff on the freeway or around town.

[gan1hck]

Try the PFC - 08's......They seem to last forever if you don't use R compound tires.

As for driving around town on race pads.....the dust is corrosive, and will eat your rims if you don't clean every weekend....

Ask I learned that mistake.