MANUAL FTW?

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by Paddy

Too true, and the sweet feeling you get when you hit those heel and toe downshifts just right, on a hard corner.

+1. Yup, definitely one of the best things about owning a manual. And it doesn't sound like an automatic when it shifts.

[linsm3]

Originally Posted by rjd598

here's the deal.Im due for a m3 in about a couple of months and set my mind on the dct. though i just recently learned how to drive manual pretty well(im only in my teens).all i can say is that a manual transmission is the best thing out there.i absolutely love it but i still might go for the dct.i feel like if i get the dct though i will for sure regret not getting manual.what would you guys do?

I know it's been said but how r u getting a m3 in your teens, I'm lots older and what I drove in my teens was not pretty. I say go with MT, this coming from a mother so it should carry WEIGHT. Yeah, you can always get DCT but get comfortable with MT first, then you can drive DCT like I do and "pretend" its MT, I got that one down.

[x838nwy]

Originally Posted by southlight

I didn't say they're 'churning' in oil. My understanding is that wet clutches are necessary for heat dissipation, so they're not the reason for higher losses per se but a solution to keep the clutches within the operational range. Regarding actuation, I checked the Getrag website and they're stating the clutch operation is hydraulic. So far I only know of one double clutch transmission which has an electromechanical operation (DSG).


Best regards,
south

Originally Posted by elp_jc

It's practically the same thing in terms of losses, and both kinds need electromechanical clutch actuation for automated control. Contrary to popular belief, a wet clutch is not 'churning' in oil, even with the engine off. It just means the clutch comes IN CONTACT with oil (some spray oil on the clutch pack and some don't). The main reason for a wet clutch is PACKAGING (which is needed with a 2nd clutch in there), but am sure weight/cost savings (vs dry clutches) were an important consideration as well. And the reason for better 'efficiency' is the 7th gear.

Sorry about that - it was me who mentioned 'churning' losses. If I implied that the clutch was somehow submerged in some thick fluid, I apologise. I believe it is a re-circulating oil bath system where oil is pumped at the clutch pack and then returned to the pump etc.

The loss I was talking about should actually be called 'drag' as the clutches come into contact with oil that is used to spray on them and there will be some drag caused here.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Even assuming that 5% better fuel economy is true

That and the 0.2 secs quicker to 62mph are straight from the UK M3 brochure and price list...it might not apply to USA cars but I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't.
And as a matter of record I found the BMW figures for the weight of a DCT unit against the MT unit as a difference of 20kgs in kerb weight (includes fluids).

Originally Posted by smmmurf

it takes about 250,000-300,000 miles to recover the initial cost of DCT (assuming $4/gal and 14-16mpg). By the time you get there, you will probably need a new DCT box.
At least it will be 5% more economical on the way to the dealer and back for DCT software updates.

Heh heh well I fully intend to keep my DCT M3 until 250,000 miles..but then again thats what I said about my last three M3s!

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

So what accounts for the 5% better fuel economy and lower C02 emissions?

A different shifting regime. "Auto" shift transmissions can change when they want, whilst manual transmissions have to conform to a specific shift cycle.

The fuel consumption tests have always favoured auto transmissions, whether of the traditional type, or the dual clutch type.

There is an interesting article on this in the latest copy of Evo

[zenderm3]

Originally Posted by linsm3

I know it's been said but how r u getting a m3 in your teens, I'm lots older and what I drove in my teens was not pretty. I say go with MT, this coming from a mother so it should carry WEIGHT. Yeah, you can always get DCT but get comfortable with MT first, then you can drive DCT like I do and "pretend" its MT, I got that one down.

Lins, Agreed - driving a V8 in your teens (Rdj) is exciting and scary. Take it easy out there - stay staff, drive easy on the road, and hard on the track.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Tony B

A different shifting regime. "Auto" shift transmissions can change when they want, whilst manual transmissions have to conform to a specific shift cycle.

Hey Tony, do you have any further info on that....I thought the manufacturer was permitted to chose the most effective gear for each part of the test cycle.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Hey Tony, do you have any further info on that....I thought the manufacturer was permitted to chose the most effective gear for each part of the test cycle.

Like promised, I had a look at the European directive BMW is basing the benefit in efficiency on. The cycle consists of a city driving and a highway driving 'simulation'. The highway driving part is done in the top gear whereas the urban driving part has a specific cycle, just like Tony said. In said cycle cars are driven in 1st to 3rd gear.
Anyway, there are two exceptions to that rule:
1) For cars having any kind of automated transmission they're more free to choose which gear is used in that cycle. IIRC, they might have to use the program the car starts with, what might be the reason for European cars starting in D2 (thanks Footie for the comment in the other thread to remind me of that).
2) Cars with manual transmission and a gear change indicator are driven in the indicated gear. I just checked, when driving 50 kph the indicator recommends changing to 5th gear for MT. Maybe one of the DCT guys could check what the recommendation is for their cars. I reckon it's the 6th or 7th.


Best regards,
south

[SenorFunkyPants]

Coincidentally I just tried to do a rough and ready urban cycle test in D1 and it swops into 2nd at ~10mph and settles into 5th at 30mph...but quite dependant on throttle position.
In D2 it might actually be less economical at it holds onto the gears for a little longer.
I did have a quick glance at the latest EU directive earlier and the only mention of gears inferred that the manufacturer could chose the most appropiate gear to use.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Coincidentally I just tried to do a rough and ready urban cycle test in D1 and it swops into 2nd at ~12mph and settles into 5th at 30mph.
In D2 it might actually be less economical at it holds onto the gears for a little longer.

That's interesting. I thought D1 was the setting where the car starts in 2nd? Maybe I'm wrong.


Best regards,
south

[ohmf12]

manual man. im in my teens too and im about to get a 335 coupe for my first car. stick > auto anytime. GL

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by southlight

That's interesting. I thought D1 was the setting where the car starts in 2nd? Maybe I'm wrong.

Best regards,
south

It holds onto 2nd as long as possible but it will eventually reluctantly select 1st. The E46 SMG box in A1 would always start in 2nd gear.
I'm losing the will to live sifting through the EU directive which has so many ammendments that refer to a previous ammendment but without quoting it in full.
This is the bit I referenced earlier but it could well have been superceded.

"Gearbox
If the vehicle is fitted with a manual gear change, the gear ratio used is the highest recommended by the manufacturer for driving at each of the test speeds. "

[Robo Squirrel]

manual FTMFW

[southlight]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

It holds onto 2nd as long as possible but it will eventually reluctantly select 1st. The E46 SMG box in A1 would always start in 2nd gear.
I'm losing the will to live sifting through the EU directive which has so many ammendments that refer to a previous ammendment but without quoting it in full.

Thanks for the correction on D2. I know it's hard to get through these directives...

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

This is the bit I referenced earlier but it could well have been superceded.
"Gearbox
If the vehicle is fitted with a manual gear change, the gear ratio used is the highest recommended by the manufacturer for driving at each of the test speeds. "

I think this only applies to the second part, highway driving. The urban cycle is shown in some graphs and tables (including the needed gears). The biggest difference is in the urban cycle where DCT cars consume 0.9l less.


Best regards,
south

[grayshrk]

My opinion is that you can't truly appreciate what you have in the M3 DCT (e.g., rev matching and the various programs) until you're experienced with a stick. Additionally, the M3 DCT is scary fast and may give the driver (especially a young driver) a false sense of confidence - way too easy to make that one mistake that kills you or someone else.

Don't get me wrong, you can easily kill yourself with the manual (and it's going to be scary fast as well for an experienced manual driver), but I'd rather have a young driver more challenged with trying to shift efficiently than challenged by trying to go as fast as they can with DCT.

I think you buy DCT for one of two reasons (or both - in my case), the convenience of auto mode when needed and / or to have control over incredibly fast shifts.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by grayshrk

I think you buy DCT for one of two reasons (or both - in my case), the convenience of auto mode when needed and / or to have control over incredibly fast shifts.

Or because you are bored of MTs...once you have mastered a MT and repeated the art eleventy million times it just get a bit old, its not even that difficult, well not compared to the 12 speed non-syncronous gearbox on an HGV I drove for a while.

[italiaboi24]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

6 speed manual. There is nothing more involving than feverishly working out both your arms and both your legs, especially when you are young.

What is most fun to me is how much passengers too enjoy watching and experiencing a good driver exhibiting his best driving skills like heel-toes and perfectly crisp rev-matches. It is almost they are getting entertained by your skills and admiring how you are working hard to make the car working the way you want it too.

THIS IS THE END-ALL TO ALL THREADS..... THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I LOVE MANUAL BUT WAS NEVER ABLE TO PUT IT INTO WORDS.

every time my buddies and i do a togue run down the mountain, they always fight over who gets to ride in my car... even though it's *just* a 330ci compared to my buddy's m3 smg... just because they love to see me work the living sh!t out of the tranny with rev matches, ect... they say it's more of a precision show and the smg m3 is more of bland experience...

dont get me wrong, i love that m3, it's just that visceral experience of driving the manual makes me feel much more connected to the car. Although sometimes, when i do miss rev match (like 50rpms), I HATE it... the car jerks and the rears chirp looking for traction. And the sound of a 80ms shift is awesome as well... the only problem is perfection EVERY time.... it gets kinda boring, but some can def. argue that perfection is key... i prefer the experience of moving my arms/legs to make the car do something people end up saying "how the fck did you do that"

so if you cant tell, yeah, 6MT for the f*ing win!!!