New Speculations on the F30 M3 / F32 M3

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Ironring Racing

Swamp, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the unibody is the same. Everything else you list are simply bolt-on's, which was my entire point.

Well the bloody engine "bolts in" as well. Maybe that means the M3 engine is not a step up from any other BMW or any other car. That is absurd. Whether a mod bolts on or not is a terrible metric for judging the differences between cars. No one is arguing that the 335 is the base for the M3 but is it highly modified and anyone who understands all of the differences should agree on the (somewhat subjective) term "highly".

If you refer to the link South posted you can see that a major part of the unibody of the M3 is different. I've also heard rumors that it has more spot welding for increased rigidity as well.

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Front and rear subframes are different part numbers but I think they are so close that to call the truly different would be a misrepresentation.

Track width.......drastically different.

T

[Pete The Greek]

As other have said, the lack of 6MT is disappointing to say the least. I guess all we can do it wait and keep our fingers crossed.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

Track width.......drastically different.

T

Getting way off topic but what are the specs, 335i vs. M3. Isn't that due to the suspension, which is totally different between the cars?

[SCOTT26]

As for the M3 I would say 450 PS will be the ceiling for the road car and they will probably add to that later , as the GTS has shown that a market exists for more track orientated edition of the car and the competition package is proving popular that BMW M are looking to enhance the M3 experience with the F32 and emulate a series of extreme variants like Porsche do with the 911 and to capitalize in it's DTM return.
Although the current M3 is not finished yet.

It could also mean a CSL could return but first expect some significant reductions with the road going M3 - The first out of the stable in 2014.
Initially available in Coupe , then Cabrio format.

And here is when it gets interesting depending on your point of view.
With the Sedan expected to be not replaced.

BMW are considering the 3er Gran Turismo. Before the hatred begins.
3er GT is nothing like the 5er GT in form. It is lower and sleeker although uses the extended structure that will be found on the F30 3er Li for the Chinese market.

Think of the 3er GT as a Concept CS shrunk for the Premium Entry segment (3er). There will not be a M5 GT.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

As for the M3 I would say 450 PS will be the ceiling for the road car and they will probably add to that later , as the GTS has shown that a market exists for more track orientated edition of the car and the competition package is proving popular that BMW M are looking to enhance the M3 experience with the F32 and emulate a series of extreme variants like Porsche do with the 911 and to capitalize in it's DTM return.
Although the current M3 is not finished yet.

It could also mean a CSL could return but first expect some significant reductions with the road going M3 - The first out of the stable in 2014.
Initially available in Coupe , then Cabrio format.

And here is when it gets interesting depending on your point of view.
With the Sedan expected to be not replaced.

BMW are considering the 3er Gran Turismo. Before the hatred begins.
3er GT is nothing like the 5er GT in form. It is lower and sleeker although uses the extended structure that will be found on the F30 3er Li for the Chinese market.

Think of the 3er GT as a Concept CS shrunk for the Premium Entry segment (3er). There will not be a M5 GT.

The return of the CSL M3! Please make it so!

[bobbyd1961]

i would never get a bmw turbo again unless there is not 1 incident of a fuel pump failure. i think the next car maybe carara

[SalM]

If they get rid of manual on M3's Im selling all my bmws and moving to mercedes.

[ES_TRADER]

Originally Posted by SalM

If they get rid of manual on M3's Im selling all my bmws and moving to mercedes.

i just cant seem to grasp merc having the shitter, i mean shifter or gear selector on the steering wheel lever where u are used to pulling on to get wipers to turn on.....soo odd to me, and it feels funny having nothing to rest ur right hand on....30-40 years ago, the shifter was on the steering column on old cars, then they moved it to the center, and now back...we did a full circle here...go figure

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by southlight

The displacement will be increased from 3.0l to 3.5l. We've had a discussion on this possibility earlier here, and came to the conclusion it wasn't possible based on the N55's cylinder spacing. What we didn't know back then is that BMW wouldn't touch the N55's bore, but implement this increase solely by adding stroke. In other words, crank and heads will be different from the N55.

Interesting. If this is true, it would mean the next M3 would redline at roughly 7300 rpm, more likely less...

I make this assumption based on piston speed:
The current M3 V8 is 21.1 meters per second.
The N55 is similar at 20.9 m/s despite the lower rpm.
The RS4 is the the highest piston speed I'm aware of in a production car- 25.5 m/s.
If BMW went with this configuration and the next M3 matched that speed it would top out at about 7300 rpm. Given that turbo pistons must be heavier I find that rpm somewhat unlikely- as others have said 7000 rpm will be a struggle, and a redline over 7300 would be effectively impossible...

Not sure how M3 fans would react to one of (the?) lowest redline in the car's history...?

[Dannys M3]

I'd be more concerned with the HPFP issues.

[romanvn106]

So it's a 335.that's how I look at it

[GOLFFRR]

If there is talks about a increase in power later after the first cycle comes out and also the possibility of a CSL it would suck for the guys who buy the car when it first comes out only to see a year later a CSL or more HP car is revealed. BMW they know how to get you dont they lol. Def looking forward to reading the updated info as its released.

Thanks Scott for keeping us all updated.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Ironring Racing

Hey, flame suit on, it's all good. See above, but my original point is still true. The fact that a discussion of how similiar (or faster) a stock or especially tuned 335i is than an M3, IS AN OUTRAGE!!! There should be no question that the M3 is top dog, period. The number of M3's I've passed on the track is just sad, and I don't put that down to a fault of the owners, why did BMW bring out 2 cars, one called an M, that are so close in performance. Heck, it's the same M5 tranny in both, more torque out of the box, and easily tunable. The debate is over tired, but my point is that with this generation it's too close, and it appears that they're making the differences even less in the next gen.

I'm not picking on the M3, or pushing the 335. I've complemented both cars, in case you missed the math, that includes the M3. What I'm complaining about, and using the 335/M3 as my example, is the increasing trend toward the M3 not being differentiated enough from the regular 3 series. The news that the next M3 engine will be, just like the X5/6M's, just a modded regular block, instead of a unique, special M engine, just continues the trend.

What I'm saying is the same as you guys, I don't like it. I personally think there should be more of a difference, and that the M3 should be heads and shoulders above the rest of the line.

It is heads and feet above it.......I guess on your theory if I pass a 911 GT3 on the track with a ///M then the ///M must be a quicker car right? It couldn't possibly be that I'm a better driver and the guy in the GT3 is a novice......that couldn't be it.

I think people pretend like the people driving the cars on the track are not a factor, which blows my mind.

I will go one better, if we talk tuned 335i, then you have to compare it to a tuned ///M. To do otherwise is like saying a tuned 911 that keeps up with or is faster than a stock GT3 means that Porsche screwed up and the GT3 is not that far ahead of a regular 911. Really?

Cheers,
e46e92

[duk]

inline 6 with 3 turboes just sounds insane and a bit stupid for reliability purposes

no MT is a deal breaker

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Interesting. If this is true, it would mean the next M3 would redline at roughly 7300 rpm, more likely less...

...

Not sure how M3 fans would react to one of (the?) lowest redline in the car's history...?

Regardless of whether they stroke the motor beyond the what the N55 has or not, I suspect the redilne will remain 7000 RPM. Though I suppose something as high as 7500 RPM is possible.

As for the lowest max RPM in the car's history so far - I think the US S52 had fuel shut off at 7200 RPM. I could be remembering wrong though.

[BlackLight]

Redline at 6800, fuel cut at 7000.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Interesting. If this is true, it would mean the next M3 would redline at roughly 7300 rpm, more likely less...

I make this assumption based on piston speed:
The current M3 V8 is 21.1 meters per second.
The N55 is similar at 20.9 m/s despite the lower rpm.
The RS4 is the the highest piston speed I'm aware of in a production car- 25.5 m/s.
If BMW went with this configuration and the next M3 matched that speed it would top out at about 7300 rpm. Given that turbo pistons must be heavier I find that rpm somewhat unlikely- as others have said 7000 rpm will be a struggle, and a redline over 7300 would be effectively impossible...

Not sure how M3 fans would react to one of (the?) lowest redline in the car's history...?

Sound reasoning. Although there is many years and model iterations with plenty of time for R&D since the RS4 arrived. I agree it will be somewhere in the range of 7000-7500. Let's hope for 7500 and a fairly linear power curve above 5500. I don't know how important it will be for BMW to have some distinguishing characteristics other than power when comparing this new M3 engine to other cars such as 335, 1M, M5. I don't think the redline of the F10 M5 is known precisely yet either. The dash pictures do not show it clearly but I think the consensus is 6750-7000.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Sound reasoning. Although there is many years and model iterations with plenty of time for R&D since the RS4 arrived. I agree it will be somewhere in the range of 7000-7500. Let's hope for 7500 and a fairly linear power curve above 5500.

Unfortunately piston speed is very difficult to increase. It took 50 years of engineering to increase race engine piston speeds from 20 to 25 m/s. Even a formula 1 engine at 19,000 rpm runs a piston speed of 25.2 m/s. Pushing above this with heavy forced induction pistons would be very, very difficult, while the 7500 rpm you mention would mean a piston speed of 26.2 m/s.

The other issue that would tend to limit RPM is that it will be almost impossible to make good power at 7000+ rpms due to the bore/stroke ratio. The valves are in the bore, and thus this defines the amount of air that can get into the cylinders. The stroke defines the volume that must be filled, and the rpm sets the time available- the higher the rpm the shorter the time. Because of this, high RPM motors tend to have bore/stoke ratios greater than 1 in order to fill their cylinders:

Formula 1: 2.47
M3: 1.22
N55: .94
Next M3? (S55?): .80

This suggests that even with an excellent intake an head, peak power above 6850 rpm is borderline impossible, and that's before we account for turbo-charging which moves peak power further downwards. Perhaps the next generation of Valvetronic or RPM variable boost might increase this (we can hope), but with today's technology we could expect power to be falling off by 7000, meaning the investment required to rev beyond 7250 would be pretty pointless.

All this plus the fact that it's a forced induction motor all suggests that the motor described here would be high torque, lower revs, unable to maintain peak power past 7000. I'd put my money on peak power at around 6600, and as others have said not much point revving beyond 7000.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The dash pictures do not show it clearly but I think the consensus is 6750-7000.

Wow.....such a high RPM........so high I am already falling asleep. God Damn they have ruined ///M...........


Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

All this plus the fact that it's a forced induction motor all suggests that the motor described here would be high torque, lower revs, unable to maintain peak power past 7000. I'd put my money on peak power at around 6600, and as others have said not much point revving beyond 7000.

Everything we have all expected and come to accept, but nevertheless, completely depressing beyond description by words

They can slap a ///M badge on it, but it simply won't be one.

Cheers,
e46e92

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Everything we have all expected and come to accept, but nevertheless, completely depressing beyond description by words

They can slap a ///M badge on it, but it simply won't be one.

Cheers,
e46e92

I am being completely honest when I say I think the new M3 will be a great car. There are things I don't like about the direction M is taking, yet at the same time an M3 has always been about the complete package. The 8400 rpm redline (well anything above about 6000) in our cars is truly breath taking. However the combination of huge torque, huge power (relatively speaking of course) and a decently high rpm, along with what I think we be the first true weight growth reversal is going to result in a car that has a much improved power to weight and will be quite a bit faster (I'm about ready to make a long post on that...) . I certainly won't complain about the drastically improved mpg either. Does that last little detail make me not a real M enthusiast? Certainly not in my opinion, it just make me one with half a conscious... As well the overall platform will be improved and the suspension will be redesigned and improved as well.

Have a bit of faith.