Why do you not track?

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by TheStigsCanadianCousin

Uhm, I have a cab. Put an 400 extra pounds on the same tires/brakes a e92 has and you go through a shitload of $$$.

Personally if I want to drive on a track, I'll do it in my 2 stroke shifter kart.

you had us at "cab" no need to explain :

[Kiemyster]

I would love to take my m3 on the track. Just need to get some proper education first before i break out the m3. The last thing I want is to damage my car due to ignorance. Knowledge is power. If any one has any good recommendations for a school or something in NY please let me know. I know I know, im a newb

[status38]

Originally Posted by JuniorM3

Because you don't want to jump in the deep end alone so you need to email me, and i'll be your coach for the day and i'll teach you how not to break your M3.

Junior@juniorstrous.com

This makes me want to move to Europe! Or maybe get a coaching lesson during an ED.

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by persian54

Fees?

A track day fee is about $150 give or take, usually less.

Maintenance?

Only real costs are an extra oil change (which you should do anyways...who does 15k mi oil changes?!), a set of Brake pads once a year (mine are still at 90% even with 4 track days and 6k miles on them), and tires (mine have 4k mi on them, 3 track days, and still plenty of thread...then again they're street tires).

The expenses are more yes, but you're driving a 50-80k car.... are you really barely making the payments...? (I don't mean "you" as in you, I mean in general)

fair questions and I can elabroate on my original post.

Yes I own my car, I don't even make payments, it's a delicate balance of "entertainment" money and value for me. Yeah, I know it'll be fun, but it's hard for me to justify that cost.

My cost of going to the track:

1. extra oil change (I can't do it, I know how to do it, but I live in an apt building, so I have to pay soemone to do it)
2. extra diff. fluid/6MT fluid change after season
3. brake pads
4. brake fluid, and subsequent flushes at end of season
5. helmet cost, come on, it's not THAT cheap, plus the older certifications are going out so you have to basically buy a new/newer helmet
6. gas (not the major factor, but it all adds up)
7. tires - a major reason I got 18's on my car was that it'll be slightly cheaper for track days.


So my start up cost is about $500 for fluid changes/labor and helmet + tires cost (say $800) = $1300 for 1 day of fun.

Hmm alternative for $1300, I can take a trip with my g/f to Asia or Europe or wherever, I can blow it on strippers (kidding), I can save it for grad school, I can save it for a house, I can save it for retirement, I like to save and I roll around on piles of saved cash everynight.

Yes, i realize my subsequent trips to the track would be cheaper.

[mact3333]

Newbies(emphasis on newbs),

when you go to the track, please dont wear Piloti driving shoes or wear driving gloves...dont bring the auto detailing spray...dont bring a pyrometer...dont wear your M hat...dont open up hood after your 5 minute session in 50 degree weather...dont use launch control at the start...dont mount your gopro camera outside the car when your hitting 90mph on the straightaways and doing corners at 40mph...but most of all, dont be this guy with the crazy painters tape!....

[LateBraking]

Originally Posted by mact3333

Newbies(emphasis on newbs),

when you go to the track, please dont wear Piloti driving shoes or wear driving gloves...dont bring the auto detailing spray...dont bring a pyrometer...dont wear your M hat...dont open up hood after your 5 minute session in 50 degree weather...dont use launch control at the start...dont mount your gopro camera outside the car when your hitting 90mph on the straightaways and doing corners at 40mph...but most of all, dont be this guy with the crazy painters tape!....

Hey! I did the GoPro thing. It's a great reference for people who have never seen the track before: to see the whole track in slow motion and great detail.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by TheStigsCanadianCousin

Your tires are at 90% even after 4 track days on a cab? Are you driving miss daisy when on the track?

If you read, I said my Brake Pads...

a set of Brake pads once a year (mine are still at 90%....

My tech at BMW said they're about 11-12mm when new. My brake pads still have about 10mm left on them.
Considering BMW doesn't want these changed until 25k miles or something... I'll prly be needing to change them in 6k miles, twice as fast. But pads aren't that expensive. You can get better aftermarket ones, or stay with OEM.

Originally Posted by PINHEAD

lol@this thread. I've been seeing this trend and knew this thread would crop up.
There is a new trend of tracking in the BMW crowd and those who track seems to think they are the more "hardcore" enthusiast, therefore they look down upon those who don't. They might not admit to it but this thread is just a hint of how it is.
Threads like "socal track chat, speedventure track day threads, etc." I've been going to the track since 2004 and the crowed has changed. Back then was the people who went because they wanted to learn and have fun, now its like they have something to prove.
There are enthusiasts of every kind, nothing wrong with like the show more than the go.
BMW drivers are...really douchebags and this thread proves it. Calling out those don't track doesn't mean they're any less of an enthusiast. Your thread holds as much water as every Ferrari or GT3 owner that doesn't track. I'd say learn to love your community, no matter what form of enthusiast they are

I respect you opinion but you misunderstood me.
I have nothing against those who don't track; I even specifically mentioned I'm not a "Track junkie," not even close..
Just starting out to track and fallen in love with it
I was just curious as to why people don't do it at all. Not why don't they do it often, why don't people at least try it.
I'm a pro-opponent of trying (almost) anything at least once to see if you like it or don't. If you do, great if you don't move on to something else
I have nothing against show instead of go. Hell I'm considering 20in wheels to DD around on lol. (considering is a key word...)

Originally Posted by admranger

Actually, I think the OP just wanted to know "why" people don't track their M3.

You got it right

Originally Posted by LateBraking

Not everyone was blessed to have a M3 since they were a kid, George. Most had to make do with automatic transmission Camrys like me. You'll have to forgive my newfound enthusiasm for tracking, now that I'm in possession of a vehicle that's actually capable of it. The cars that I've had prior unfortunately fell apart at the mere notion of doing anything sporty.

I think, in my case at least, it's better to be enthusiastic about tracking now that I'm doing it, rather than be a poser and be enthusiastic about it while I'm not. Better than being a hard parker, and a bench racer, you know?

I don't think the point of this thread was "why don't you track"/end, but rather, "why don't you track comparative to the other dangerous activities that you are already engaged in", as stated in Sean's first post (i.e. canyoning and cyclists, etc.). From that perspective, I agree that the best thing to do is to keep it on the track. The money argument as well: given the example that I presented, it's virtually a non-argument.

For me, my previous cars (Ok maybe the C230K, S420, and CTS weren't...but the 986 and 996 def were) were capable of tracking.. i just didn't really know anything about it.
I wish I was more into the car scene... before, I didn't really ever go to any car meets, I didn't even know about car forums...

Originally Posted by Kiemyster

Knowledge is power.

+1

Originally Posted by mdosu

fair questions and I can elabroate on my original post.

So my start up cost is about $500 for fluid changes/labor and helmet + tires cost (say $800) = $1300 for 1 day of fun.

Hmm alternative for $1300, I can take a trip with my g/f to Asia or Europe or wherever, I can blow it on strippers (kidding), I can save it for grad school, I can save it for a house, I can save it for retirement, I like to save and I roll around on piles of saved cash everynight.

Yes, i realize my subsequent trips to the track would be cheaper.

I see your point more clearly now

But I can't see how you came up with $1300 for start up... for the entire season, or a couple of days sure... but just the start up?
I didn't spend that much...
I spent $150 for Big Willow Track fee (or whatever it was, maybe 130?), Helmet which I already had from before. Gas was $150ish (go there, track, come back), and that was it.
So my cost for that day was $300.


You don't need to change all the fluids after 1 track day... right..?

A Helmet can be with you for a while (I got mine for $120)
But you can also rent them for $10 so it's not that bad..

If it was going to cost me $1300 to start up... I too wouldn't do it lol

But I did buy a second set of rims and tires for the track, but those have become my daily too (i like the look, and the 18s provide better ride quality over my 220Ms did), so I'm not using that cost towards track cost as well, I'm using it for a daily...

Originally Posted by mact3333

Newbies(emphasis on newbs),

when you go to the track, please dont wear Piloti driving shoes or wear driving gloves...dont bring the auto detailing spray...dont bring a pyrometer...dont wear your M hat...dont open up hood after your 5 minute session in 50 degree weather...dont use launch control at the start...dont mount your gopro camera outside the car when your hitting 90mph on the straightaways and doing corners at 40mph...but most of all, dont be this guy with the crazy painters tape!....

Thank you for the pointers
I would rather take my girl on a trip :P

Too bad we don't have 50 degree whether here... more like 90+....

[persian54]

Originally Posted by LateBraking

Hey! I did the GoPro thing. It's a great reference for people who have never seen the track before: to see the whole track in slow motion and great detail.

Emphasis on slow right?


I kid I kid

[ManAndMachine]

Originally Posted by persian54

There have been several threads and it's pretty safe to assume that less than 10, if not less than 5%, of M3 drivers do not track their car.

Recently, I've been talking to some friends about coming to the track with me etc... and they're all like:
"I'm scared"
"It's dangerous"
"I don't want to go through tires"
"Gas is expensive"
"I don't think I'm up to it"
"I don't want to track a new (5kmi+) car"

Their cars range from E9x M3s, E46 M3s, 335is, Mustang GTs, Z06, and GTR.

I don't understand...

When on the street, I can barely go over 40, 45mph. I can't rev past 4k, maybe hit 6k if I'm lucky. Can't ever go WOT...

Other than getting on the freeway from the on ramp, I can't go too fast... I can hit redline but that's only in 1st...I have to shift up so that I don't go past 80mph

I hate driving around the valley(pot holes, cops, stupid drivers around me), hell downtown LA is 10x worse...

I don't understand how people can not track their car... I really don't.
Unless you don't have a track near you? I mean the nearest one to me is 90mi away..

I'm not saying people should go track every week or month or even often.. but those who have never tracked... or are unwilling to track... or don't plan to track... etc etc... I just.. Don't understand it

Can someone please explain this to me?

People are willing to go speed through canyons with the possibility of a bicyclist, another car, a pedestrian, oncoming car, etc... but not track cause it's too dangerous?
Like the L4P guys.. they always storm through the canyons... but I don't see them at track events... nor do I see them even interested in track events.
I'm not against canyon driving, it's fun. I just don't see how people think that's any safer than being in a controlled environment...

Or those who go on freeways, cutting people off at 100mph, going in and out of lanes....

I'm not saying I don't speed, so please don't wrongly assume anything.

Nor do I consider myself a "track junkie"

I was just curious to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter

You also see the same type of riders in the bike community,out in the canyons every weekend.Blasting through blind corners,trying to drag knee without proper protection or ability,reaching speeds upwards of 100mph just to get a ''rush''..I have a few friends that fall into this category and when I ask them to join for a track day,the excuses start flowing..

It only takes one day at the track to realize that,It's FAR more dangerous to push the car/bikes limits on public streets and how much your driving/riding improves after a lesson or two from an instructor..

Hey..I look at it this way..The more time I spend at the track the more fun and skill I attain..And I've realized some people are just too hard headed or pussy to learn otherwise

[LateBraking]

Originally Posted by persian54

Emphasis on slow right?


I kid I kid

YOU'RE kidding, not Me....

[mact3333]

Originally Posted by LateBraking

Hey! I did the GoPro thing. It's a great reference for people who have never seen the track before: to see the whole track in slow motion and great detail.

I actually agree with you...next month I am using my Flip HD with headrest mount to see and try to figure out how better to drive in the future.

[ManAndMachine]

Originally Posted by mact3333

Newbies(emphasis on newbs),

when you go to the track, please dont wear Piloti driving shoes or wear driving gloves...dont bring the auto detailing spray...dont bring a pyrometer...dont wear your M hat...dont open up hood after your 5 minute session in 50 degree weather...dont use launch control at the start...dont mount your gopro camera outside the car when your hitting 90mph on the straightaways and doing corners at 40mph...but most of all, dont be this guy with the crazy painters tape!....

[persian54]

at the last track day I went to, there was a car with DUCT tape on it... DUCT tape!

[ManAndMachine]

Originally Posted by persian54

at the last track day I went to, there was a car with DUCT tape on it... DUCT tape!

Did it work?

[RayC]

Originally Posted by persian54

at the last track day I went to, there was a car with DUCT tape on it... DUCT tape!

LOL I've seen that before. Some guy brought a Merc CLS out to the track and was trying to put duct tape on his car. I felt bad for him so I tossed him a roll of painter's tape.

Last track day, I drove for 5 hours to get to my nearest track (a holiday weekend) and only managed to get one 20 minute session in because I got there late. I then spent another 3.5 hours driving back. I had fun though so it was worth it.

PS I used a buddy's GoPro camera (inside the car) on my first track day. I have that video under lock and key.

[kiwistu]

Hi Everyone

Firstly, if you are a car enthusiast, who loves to cruise about in your M3 on sunny days, thats cool, and I do get it, because I plan in the future to get an 50's/60's aston, merc pagoda or similar and do just that, so new car/old car what ever floats your boat...and you should not do a track day!

I feel happy to comment on this because in the last year I have racked up about a dozen track days in my 335d and then, (in no small part due driving my instructors M3) my AW 6 speed M3!

I have always loved watching top gear etc, and it was basically on my list to learn to drive a road car on a track like they do on TV. Which with help of instruction I have made big steps toward getting there.

So big 95% controlled slides in 1st, 2nd have been nailed in the wet, part dry and dry, and believe me this hugely satisfying. Further to this having spun many times, this is not to be learnt anywhere but a big car park or a track with no power poles!

Wear on the car yep, but no you will not wear out a set of tyres in a day, brake pads etc, if you drive like a muppet over-shooting corners, bouncing the car around the track, being the last of the late brakers yes you'll eventually stuff it.

Over all the M3 is actually IMHO the perfect car for track days, fast. But also super forgiving and with DCT on shockingly quick when driven smoothly, and in M mode and on to no DCT just excellent fun. And if it rains all the 911 boys park up, I had the track literally to myself for about an hour! (basically the holy grail for someone who been car mad for ever, hold on: damp race track, my own M3, no one out....OMG this is ON!)

Re the detailers: it gets covered in bugs, grim, and all sorts (especially if leaves the tarmac) rims get hammered, etc etc etc.

Check: tyres? always go with a full tank? safety ambulance on site? Insurance in place? (in NZ we have with a $5K excess, awesome!) only few cars on track? no dicks in civics? If the lights are green go for it...

If your into cars, visit but don't drive, if your a do'er ie want to push it a little - go for it you'll never look back!

And yes I've given up hassling friends with 911s, S4's, S6's, Subys you name it...

Gagging for the next track day? yes indeed!

Stu

[Blotman]

I started tracking this year, but had the M3 since 2008. I always wanted to go before that, but what kept me from doing it was a lack of knowledge about how to get started. Plenty of questions entered my mind that I didn't want to deal with at the time. How do I get on the track? Do I just show up or do I need to sign up? If I sign up, how do I get an instructor? How much would it cost, and do I need to do anything to my car?

Of course, spending money to mod the car beyond highway means was a good motivation to start Googling for answers.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

Some people are just pussies. You can't explain all aspects related to that...

In a sence you're right. I've gone to meets and people are all talking about how much power they dyno'ed and all the mods they have, but when I ask if they've ever gone out... TONS OF EXCUSES. One said, "I have kids!!" Shit, I have 3. Leave DSC on and you'd have to drive off the track to go off.

Originally Posted by KTM505SX

Or even think they may be able to go beyond their fears if they gave themselves the chance in an controlled environment.

Some like make the excuse of burning through tires,brakes and $$$,but an experienced track driver knows what a newb is capable of on a track.And does not even come close to dusting tires and brakes in one or two track days. Excuses,posing and street racing FTL!

I would track anything that is capable of withstanding more than 5-6 laps without bursting into flames,but hey that's just me

This is what people have to understand. You barely wear your tires/brakes when you're learning, even with stock brakes and tires. It takes a while to start getting beyond the stock brakes and tires. I got a ride with an instructor in an M3 with 1,200 miles on it. She was hauling ass, and the car was ALL stock. She did brake a little earlier than someone with a BBK or track pads, but she's faster than any track newb and the car was fine.

Originally Posted by Kiemyster

I would love to take my m3 on the track. Just need to get some proper education first before i break out the m3. The last thing I want is to damage my car due to ignorance. Knowledge is power. If any one has any good recommendations for a school or something in NY please let me know. I know I know, im a newb

BMWCCA is your friend. Totally safe and very controlled environment with excellent teaching.

Their events tend to be more than SpeedVentures of other track days, but the insturction is excellent.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by mact3333

Newbies(emphasis on newbs),

when you go to the track, please dont wear Piloti driving shoes or wear driving gloves...dont bring the auto detailing spray...dont bring a pyrometer...dont wear your M hat...dont open up hood after your 5 minute session in 50 degree weather...dont use launch control at the start...dont mount your gopro camera outside the car when your hitting 90mph on the straightaways and doing corners at 40mph...but most of all, dont be this guy with the crazy painters tape!....

Sorry but I don't agree. Nothing wrong with using shoes or gloves. They do serve a purpose. Same goes for camera. Sure, if said person is using to "show off", that's lame. But I do use camera setup, and it has massive value in my development.

I have 2 cameras, one mounted to the headrest via extension bar so I can see my hands and the road. The other is on the steering column so I can see the speed, and DSC intervention. I also have a sound recorder which I use to record the exhaust. I do this for 2 reasons: gives you an idea of how hard the throttle is, and makes the video much better since you don't here damn wind noise. I discuss the results of these videos with my instructor after the track day and I get some good feedback...

[I Love My Car]

I had to register just for this.

Why do I not track my car? Because it's fucking expensive to do so. It has nothing to do with being able to afford the car, I could afford 3 of them easily, but tracking here in tri state area costs a lot of money.

You have 2 ways of tracking the car:

a) you go for HDPEs that are hosted by BMWCCA or other clubs, which cost at a minimum $400 per day and that's just you sitting in a car with another person (unless you have done this for 5 years and you are expert), its not like you in a race track driving the shit out of your car the way you want (without dangering others obviously). At most you'll do 5-6 laps and that'll be all.

b) you join tracks as member, such as NJMP (New Jersey Motorsport Park). With the membership, you can go to the track any of the "public" days, which are very rare (30 times/year or so, so on average once twice a week). Well that sounds "alright", oh wait, you have to pay an "initiation fee" of $15,000 and a yearly "due" of $2,400! Nice ha?

Unless you shit money, I don't think anyone would pay 20k for tracking their car, so option b is gone. For option a, meh, it might be okay to "see what's out there", but absolutely its not something you can do on a continuous basis. What I want to do is to be able to track my car when I want where I want. I highly doubt these tracks have races every day. So why don't they let you pay a fee yourself, show your helmet, tech inspection, and bam track your car? I have no idea, I guess part of it has to do with this being America and the air you breathe as much as your spit costs money.

I was so disappointed to find out about this last winter, I bought my M3 with only one thing in mind, tracking. Now unless I want to spend more than I spend for the car a month (2 track days a month will run me for $1,000, my car payment is $950), there is no way for me to enjoy this car.

So, persian, I'm not sure what the heck you are talking about my friend, you are in California and you are saying $150 for an open track? I'll just "only in Hollywood movies" and leave it there.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by I Love My Car

a) you go for HDPEs that are hosted by BMWCCA or other clubs, which cost at a minimum $400 per day and that's just you sitting in a car with another person (unless you have done this for 5 years and you are expert), its not like you in a race track driving the shit out of your car the way you want (without dangering others obviously). At most you'll do 5-6 laps and that'll be all.

That sounds real bad. Here in WA, we pay $200/day with BMWCCA or PCA. You get about 2hours of seat time (four 30min sessisons). I'm in the novice group, so I'm not as fast, but I manage to do about 90miles in a 2.25mile circuit. So 40 laps.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by sl1981

most people that buy sport cars are posers. they just buy these cars to keep in the garage and say "look at the cool car i have. look at the thousands of $$$ that i wasted on mods but the car will never see the track while i own it." why not pose in something more comfortable like an is-f?

To each of his own, but I love people buying BBKs, coilovers etc and NOT track...