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      12-16-2017, 12:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Nope, I'm saying it's been a for-profit industry for a long and was the best in the world and made huge advancements in medical care. The Government got involved with it and the lawyers attacked it like a flock of vultures and ruined it.

If the auto industry was not-for-profit, your M235 would suck (not exist actually). The problem is the industry now is not allowed to act like a free-market economic system, which garners competition and lower cost with reasonable profit margins.

Queue The Axiom...
Well let's see, how about we take a look at what happened after the airline industry was deregulated. Prior to deregulation, seating was reasonably comfortable; flight crews were well paid and also well respected.

Today, passengers are crammed in like sardines and many flight crews struggle to make ends meet, particularly in regional airlines. Once highly respected captains are now treated like bus drivers. My son has been an airline pilot for 15 years, including 4 years as a captain in the regional airlines and he still has to hold a second job.

So tell me again who is actually benefiting financially, in any big industry? Not to mention that the customers still get the dirty end of the stick.
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      12-16-2017, 12:22 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 3.0L View Post
Well let's see, how about we take a look at what happened after the airline industry was deregulated. Prior to deregulation, seating was reasonably comfortable; flight crews were well paid and also well respected.

Today, passengers are crammed in like sardines and many flight crews struggle to make ends meet, particularly in regional airlines. Once highly respected captains are now treated like bus drivers. My son has been an airline pilot for 15 years, including 4 years as a captain in the regional airlines and he still has to hold a second job.

So tell me again who is actually benefiting financially, in any big industry? Not to mention that the customers still get the dirty end of the stick.
If you don't like the system, then move to say Cuba, Valenzuela, or North Korea, I'm sure the healthcare there is much better. If you hate big industry, why did you buy a BMW? BMW is one of the most profitable of all car companies.

On many routes you can fly to your destination cheaper than driving and at a far less time investment, so I'm going with the consumer benefits.
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      12-16-2017, 12:54 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
If you don't like the system, then move to say Cuba, Valenzuela, or North Korea, I'm sure the healthcare there is much better.
There's a pretty wide gap there between the US and N. Korea. There's quite a few countries in the middle that have exceptional healthcare for all their citizens because they have found the right mix of free market, for profit, with smart government oversight.

Cuba is actually doing some cutting edge medical research.
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      12-16-2017, 01:40 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
If you don't like the system, then move to say Cuba, Valenzuela, or North Korea, I'm sure the healthcare there is much better. If you hate big industry, why did you buy a BMW? BMW is one of the most profitable of all car companies.

On many routes you can fly to your destination cheaper than driving and at a far less time investment, so I'm going with the consumer benefits.
Obviously, you don't give a s**t about the employees providing the service. How typical these days.

Meanwhile, we will certainly continue to watch the CEO's and upper management laugh all the way to the bank.

And BTW, I spent a year in Vietnam back in '69, so I have a pretty good understanding of what bad times look like. You know, back when the current POTUS was dodging the draft and living life large. Little has changed, has it.
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      12-16-2017, 02:53 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by 3.0L View Post
Obviously, you don't give a s**t about the employees providing the service. How typical these days.

Meanwhile, we will certainly continue to watch the CEO's and upper management laugh all the way to the bank.

And BTW, I spent a year in Vietnam back in '69, so I have a pretty good understanding of what bad times look like. You know, back when the current POTUS was dodging the draft and living life large. Little has changed, has it.
Cue Bill Clinton reference in 3-2-1...........
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      12-16-2017, 02:55 PM   #72
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and yet your absolutely wrong, I've always have had not the best health and once I got into the work force I purchase insurance which end up as a good decision since one year I was hospitalize for a week and ran up 150,000 dollar bill. From my personal experience of having Insurance at all points of my life the government meddling has only resulted in cost going way up and coverage going way down. When I press an insurance agent about the matter their response was "well rent goes up every year" and my response was "but my apartment doesn't get smaller"
Iím glad it worked out for you, but I wonder what would of happened to you if you got cancer or something like that that required months to years of treatment. Iím curious as to what your caps where etc.

Or god forbid you had a medically fragile child and racked up millions etc.
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      12-16-2017, 04:12 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by 3.0L View Post
Obviously, you don't give a s**t about the employees providing the service. How typical these days.

Meanwhile, we will certainly continue to watch the CEO's and upper management laugh all the way to the bank.

And BTW, I spent a year in Vietnam back in '69, so I have a pretty good understanding of what bad times look like. You know, back when the current POTUS was dodging the draft and living life large. Little has changed, has it.
I'd bet most those employees in the airline industry were union and voted for politicians that allowed Wall Street to bastardize the capital investment system. Trust me, I am one of those employees (not union). Our CEO sold out our company (tax free spin off) and walked away with $50M. The new company that bought us SUCKS, and the CEO thinks he running a hedge fund rather than a Corporation that has paying customers. So I agree with you that the CEO compensation scale is way out of whack.
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      12-16-2017, 04:23 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
If you don't like the system, then move to say Cuba, Valenzuela, or North Korea, I'm sure the healthcare there is much better.
One other thing, sonny boy: Those of us who had a little skin in
the game tend to not forget our roots.

I’m not against capitalism, but I am against greed - something
that seems to be more rampant with every passing day. Our
health care and associated costs are a stand alone entity and
not remotely related to what we drive or the size of our house.
Everything takes a very distant 2nd place to our health.

As long as powerful and wealthy lobbists are allowed to
influence our so-called representatives in Washington, the
greed will continue.
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Last edited by 3.0L; 12-16-2017 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Corrected a typo
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      12-16-2017, 09:45 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by 3.0L View Post
As long as powerful and wealthy lobbists are allowed to
influence our so-called representatives in Washington, the
greed will continue.
This is spot on. Other countries manage to combine for profit healthcare, with government oversight, and cover all their citizens because the government itself that is providing the structure and the ground rules is not beholden to special interest money. Until we get the money out of our politics, our system of government will continue to benefit the wealthy at the expense of the non wealthy, whether it comes to healthcare, education, infrastructure, taxes, etc.
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      12-17-2017, 09:18 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by 3.0L View Post
One other thing, sonny boy: Those of us who had a little skin in
the game tend to not forget our roots.

Iím not against capitalism, but I am against greed - something
that seems to be more rampant with every passing day. Our
health care and associated costs are a stand alone entity and
not remotely related to what we drive or the size of our house.
Everything takes a very distant 2nd place to our health.

As long as powerful and wealthy lobbists are allowed to
influence our so-called representatives in Washington, the
greed will continue.
I'm way older than any age that anyone can call me Sonny Boy, so chill with the attempt at an insult. If you don't think lobbyists were involved with the creation of ObamaCare than I can't accept that you have some issue with greed. The only reason greed prospers in what should be an open market system is the Government gets involved and political greed takes over. Politicians are the most greedy of all.
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      12-17-2017, 11:30 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'm way older than any age that anyone can call me Sonny Boy, so chill with the attempt at an insult. If you don't think lobbyists were involved with the creation of ObamaCare than I can't accept that you have some issue with greed. The only reason greed prospers in what should be an open market system is the Government gets involved and political greed takes over. Politicians are the most greedy of all.
You shouldn't allow yourself to get so wrapped around the axle over your own assumptions.

Secondly, you have a habit of omitting things such as the greedy businessmen in the pool of greed. It's not just the politicians. Try educating yourself about the lobbyists and consider who back$ them.

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      12-17-2017, 12:19 PM   #78
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I've watched this thread for a while and debated about commenting. Well, I guess I'll add my 2 cents. I have a unique position many who have posted do not have. I have been around the medical field in vary capacities. At one point, I was contemplating going to med school and took one of the required classes in the pre-med program. I got to see a small cross sample of the type of future doctors our educational system churns out. Later in life, I decided to scratch my medical itch by being a volunteer EMT for quite a few years. Through those years, I got to see the good and bad with our emergency medical care system. With my brother being a PA, I also see how the current environment has changed patient care as one practice he was working for had forced quotas on the number of patients he had to see per day which meant a set amount of time he could spend with each one; assembly line medicine. And finally as a user of medical benefits with both a major illness in the immediate family along with my own major illness.

I'll put this out there and I've said this numerous times here. It is absolutely criminal to allow insurance companies to be publicly traded on the stock market. You cannot separate the main drive of share holders which is profit from providing proper patient care. I'll also state this. I understand the role of profit and how it drives innovation and research. There is a place for this. Note I did not say insurance companies shouldn't make a profit. But there shouldn't be additional pressures for them to behave in a profit as the primary goal first operation. Agree or disagree with me on this. It's my opinion.

Next. From someone who has dealt with cancer twice, I can say if I wasn't a saver I'd be in trouble even with health insurance provided by my employer. I watched my employer progressively cut back on benefits to the point where we as employees have to come more and more out of pocket. I was being coaxed into an HSA plan as that's what my employer prefers all of its employees to be enrolled in. Under the HSA plan, the deductibles are much higher than a PPO which requires me to pay 100% of the expenses up to the deductible. My individual deductible is $3000. After I meet my deductible, I'm responsible for a 20% co pay.

Let's go through some bills I've had to endure for my cancers. CT w/ contrast billed to me at contract rate, $950. PET/CT billed to me at contract rate $1800. Office visits with my oncologist after negotiated rate any where from $50 to $100 per visit. The number of bills gets overwhelming where I just mindlessly pay them as they come in. I've seen EOBs showing one of the chemo drugs I received post surgery, 5FU, was billed at $3000 per dose. I went through 12 cycles. This doesn't include the clinic visits which I had another chemo drug, oxaliplatinin administered 11 times along with other premeds such as steroids and anti nausea meds (Ativan and Emend). I haven't even talked about the clinic charges for the facilities, supplies, and nursing. Or the at home nurse who is dispatched to connect/disconnect me from the chemo pump which I have to endure for 46 hours. Nor have I talked about the two surgeries I've had which I seem to recall just the hospital bill was around $20k negotiated for both procedures. This doesn't capture the bills from my CRC surgeon or anesthesiologist. Nor the procedure to install a power port into my chest so I can get chemo administered without wrecking my veins; had to go through this twice as the first attempt failed.

And once treatment ends, it doesn't stop there. I have to be monitored for 5 years (my oncologist is following me longer because of the second cancer and recent weirdness with my tumor markers). This means follow ups every 3 months with CT scans and blood work. I've only recently been graduated to 6 months. Not to mention the yearly colonoscopies.

On paper, I'm a model of the "typical" middle class family. Work at a good job making good money with health insurance provided by a large company. But with all of this, I could have easily been in financial trouble.
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      12-17-2017, 12:45 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I've watched this thread for a while and debated about commenting. Well, I guess I'll add my 2 cents. I have a unique position many who have posted do not have. I have been around the medical field in vary capacities. At one point, I was contemplating going to med school and took one of the required classes in the pre-med program. I got to see a small cross sample of the type of future doctors our educational system churns out. Later in life, I decided to scratch my medical itch by being a volunteer EMT for quite a few years. Through those years, I got to see the good and bad with our emergency medical care system. With my brother being a PA, I also see how the current environment has changed patient care as one practice he was working for had forced quotas on the number of patients he had to see per day which meant a set amount of time he could spend with each one; assembly line medicine. And finally as a user of medical benefits with both a major illness in the immediate family along with my own major illness.

I'll put this out there and I've said this numerous times here. It is absolutely criminal to allow insurance companies to be publicly traded on the stock market. You cannot separate the main drive of share holders which is profit from providing proper patient care. I'll also state this. I understand the role of profit and how it drives innovation and research. There is a place for this. Note I did not say insurance companies shouldn't make a profit. But there shouldn't be additional pressures for them to behave in a profit as the primary goal first operation. Agree or disagree with me on this. It's my opinion.

Next. From someone who has dealt with cancer twice, I can say if I wasn't a saver I'd be in trouble even with health insurance provided by my employer. I watched my employer progressively cut back on benefits to the point where we as employees have to come more and more out of pocket. I was being coaxed into an HSA plan as that's what my employer prefers all of its employees to be enrolled in. Under the HSA plan, the deductibles are much higher than a PPO which requires me to pay 100% of the expenses up to the deductible. My individual deductible is $3000. After I meet my deductible, I'm responsible for a 20% co pay.

Let's go through some bills I've had to endure for my cancers. CT w/ contrast billed to me at contract rate, $950. PET/CT billed to me at contract rate $1800. Office visits with my oncologist after negotiated rate any where from $50 to $100 per visit. The number of bills gets overwhelming where I just mindlessly pay them as they come in. I've seen EOBs showing one of the chemo drugs I received post surgery, 5FU, was billed at $3000 per dose. I went through 12 cycles. This doesn't include the clinic visits which I had another chemo drug, oxaliplatinin administered 11 times along with other premeds such as steroids and anti nausea meds (Ativan and Emend). I haven't even talked about the clinic charges for the facilities, supplies, and nursing. Or the at home nurse who is dispatched to connect/disconnect me from the chemo pump which I have to endure for 46 hours. Nor have I talked about the two surgeries I've had which I seem to recall just the hospital bill was around $20k negotiated for both procedures. This doesn't capture the bills from my CRC surgeon or anesthesiologist. Nor the procedure to install a power port into my chest so I can get chemo administered without wrecking my veins; had to go through this twice as the first attempt failed.

And once treatment ends, it doesn't stop there. I have to be monitored for 5 years (my oncologist is following me longer because of the second cancer and recent weirdness with my tumor markers). This means follow ups every 3 months with CT scans and blood work. I've only recently been graduated to 6 months. Not to mention the yearly colonoscopies.

On paper, I'm a model of the "typical" middle class family. Work at a good job making good money with health insurance provided by a large company. But with all of this, I could have easily been in financial trouble.
Wow!

You are a tough son of a b*tch. Hats off to you for pulling through all that. I honestly don't think that I would have the fortitude to walk that path you've been down. How were you able to hold down a job during all of that?

I had an employee who developed leukemia at age 26. Her experience sounds very much like yours. 2 years of endless treatment. The Leukemia itself was "cured" in a matter of a few months with chemo. It was the after effects of the chemo that caused the need for nearly 30 surgeries over the course of 18 months. I had never considered long term disability insurance until I witnessed her struggle. Now I consider it to be second only in importance to health insurance.

In any case, glad you are on the mend.
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      12-17-2017, 01:19 PM   #80
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Wow!

You are a tough son of a b*tch. Hats off to you for pulling through all that. I honestly don't think that I would have the fortitude to walk that path you've been down. How were you able to hold down a job during all of that?

I had an employee who developed leukemia at age 26. Her experience sounds very much like yours. 2 years of endless treatment. The Leukemia itself was "cured" in a matter of a few months with chemo. It was the after effects of the chemo that caused the need for nearly 30 surgeries over the course of 18 months. I had never considered long term disability insurance until I witnessed her struggle. Now I consider it to be second only in importance to health insurance.

In any case, glad you are on the mend.
I agree with you but i want to add that i have no problem with a pair of silicone boobs costing 2 million (if not for a reconstructive surgery after c), Botox should cost 2 million per 10 ml. I'm completely cool with a dermatologist making a ton for fixing our wrinkles but ripping off people when they are fighting for their lives is so fucked up. Us voters allowing it anywhere is a thing we all will have to chat about with our creators (if one believes in one, if not, go nuts).
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      12-17-2017, 03:19 PM   #81
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You shouldn't allow yourself to get so wrapped around the axle over your own assumptions.

Secondly, you have a habit of omitting things such as the greedy businessmen in the pool of greed. It's not just the politicians. Try educating yourself about the lobbyists and consider who back$ them.

If Government was not in the healthcare business the system would be better off. It is plainly obvious that the more the Government gets involved, the worst the system gets and fails the people who use it.
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      12-17-2017, 03:23 PM   #82
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If Government was not in the healthcare business the system would be better off. It is plainly obvious that the more the Government gets involved, the worst the system gets and fails the people who use it.
Canada is all in, Finland is all in, well most of the countries with long life expectancy are all in.
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      12-17-2017, 04:21 PM   #83
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If Government was not in the healthcare business the system would be better off. It is plainly obvious that the more the Government gets involved, the worst the system gets and fails the people who use it.
Love your assumptions.
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      12-17-2017, 05:11 PM   #84
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The amount of medical insurance rates I hear people in the US paying is downright scary. I cant imagine getting into a debate about the need for treatment with a company who's sole interest is to NOT pay out claims. What a fucking shit show.

In order for a country to adopt a government run medical system there needs to be a general sense of compassion with its citizen. The mindset of everyone man/woman/child for themselves as in a capitalist market will never translate into a working government run medial system.

The problem with compassion is that people rarely understand it until they need it. If society has a small well off % of citizens that frankly never need it, they wont feel the need to provide it.

A capitalist mindset is great for business, but doesn't work for social issues (by sheer definition).
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      12-17-2017, 06:01 PM   #85
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The amount of medical insurance rates I hear people in the US paying is downright scary. I cant imagine getting into a debate about the need for treatment with a company who's sole interest is to NOT pay out claims. What a fucking shit show.

In order for a country to adopt a government run medical system there needs to be a general sense of compassion with its citizen. The mindset of everyone man/woman/child for themselves as in a capitalist market will never translate into a working government run medial system.

The problem with compassion is that people rarely understand it until they need it. If society has a small well off % of citizens that frankly never need it, they wont feel the need to provide it.

A capitalist mindset is great for business, but doesn't work for social issues (by sheer definition).
I couldn't agree more.

I actually typed a long story about my son and how much he will cost to the tax payers of Finland. I also made a moderate calculation on how much he will contribute in taxes if he can get help when he needs it. But let's be real, nobody cares here.

A society that takes care of the weakest means we make everyone strong. If the elderly, sick, poor and tired are the outcasts, a huge tax cut for the rich will fix it for sure.
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      12-17-2017, 06:21 PM   #86
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The amount of medical insurance rates I hear people in the US paying is downright scary. I cant imagine getting into a debate about the need for treatment with a company who's sole interest is to NOT pay out claims. What a fucking shit show.

In order for a country to adopt a government run medical system there needs to be a general sense of compassion with its citizen. The mindset of everyone man/woman/child for themselves as in a capitalist market will never translate into a working government run medial system.

The problem with compassion is that people rarely understand it until they need it. If society has a small well off % of citizens that frankly never need it, they wont feel the need to provide it.

A capitalist mindset is great for business, but doesn't work for social issues (by sheer definition).
This is exactly why my retirement plan calls for leaving this county. My wife and I live off my salary and bank 100% of hers. In 20 years we will retire and leave the country so we can spend our retirement funds on enjoying life and traveling, instead of on medical care.

My mother just retired this year at the age of 70. She's in good health and is on medicare. To make up the difference in what medicare does not cover, she's paying $1,000 a month out of pocket. $12k/year just to bridge the gap, just in case her health declines. Never mind the $100k/year you can easily spend on assisted living. F that!
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      12-17-2017, 06:23 PM   #87
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If Government was not in the healthcare business the system would be better off. It is plainly obvious that the more the Government gets involved, the worst the system gets and fails the people who use it.
What's your thoughts on the FDA? Necessary government oversight of the drug industry or needless overhead getting in the way of the free market?

How about the CDC and NIH? More bureaucracy that would be better addressed through private industry?
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      12-17-2017, 11:05 PM   #88
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If Government was not in the healthcare business the system would be better off. It is plainly obvious that the more the Government gets involved, the worst the system gets and fails the people who use it.
Please elaborate.
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