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01-10-2009, 06:47 AM | #89 |
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I love (WRC)rallying compared to let's say Formula 1. But just like a M3 is not a F1 car, an Audi RS4 certainly IS NOT a WRC car. It's FWD bias sucks. And our roads are not gravel/snow/rallystages LOL.Better go for a Mitsu EVO5/6 or try to find a Sportquattro/RS200()or Pug 205T16 for that matter.
Some Lotus Elise/Exige drivers are tired of explaining Subaru Impreza GTT drivers the difference between grip and traction. And I don't live on the Northpole so maybe that's why I 'd choose proper wintertyres OVER AWD(IF necessary!) but the 2 would go hand in hand in winter/snowy conditions I agree. (Me enjoying powersliding/drifting/going sideways once in a while and admitting I love a proper rwd car, also(especially) in wet conditions, not for going faster but for enjoying the ride) |
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01-10-2009, 09:12 AM | #90 | |
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01-10-2009, 11:25 AM | #91 |
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I would say yes but not always the case, the problem with all cars is packaging. The RS4 is a poor example of what is capable with awd, not to say it's a bad car only that it carrys to much weight over the nose. The R8 or GTR are much better examples of what is capable and both produce better lap times than the majority of equal powered rwd cars.
But the main reason for using awd is it makes cornering easier to control for the masses, and the majority of people (even M3 drivers) are pretty shit behind the wheel. |
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01-10-2009, 03:48 PM | #92 | |
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I think the GTR has shown that a torque vectoring AWD system can improve performance. The stuff in the Audis don't, yet.
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01-10-2009, 04:39 PM | #93 |
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Maybe you got me wrong, I wasn't saying RWD is better than AWD, even if RWD is what I prefer, I just don't like Audi when it comes to comparing its performance cars to the competition. My point was they take a FWD chassis, and throw on "quattro", and market it as a sports car. IMO a sports car its not. too much weight is over the front wheels, and it severely effects the handling dynamics. When a company decides the do that, the car still handles like its FWD, it just has more grip when applying power. The TT is a prime example, of a car that had no business being a FWD (w/ an AWD version) car, other than to save money on engineering a proper platform to base it on.
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01-10-2009, 07:32 PM | #94 | |
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Most would agree the most recent RS4 > E46 M3, so by your logic would you consider the E46 M3 not a sports car? |
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01-10-2009, 11:21 PM | #95 | |
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This is beautiful.
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01-10-2009, 11:36 PM | #96 | |
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Maybe in your circle RS4 > E46 M3, but not in mine. It might lap the ring in a faster time, but that doesn't make it a better sports car. If a Porsche Cayenne Turbo, lapped the ring better than an M3, is it a better sports car? As far as I'm concerned, Miata > RS4, no matter how much faster the RS4 is around the track. I guess I have to say it again, slapping AWD on a jetta/passat, with a great engine, doesn't constitute a great sports car, even if it was (it's not) faster than an M3.
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01-11-2009, 02:17 AM | #98 | |
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01-11-2009, 04:05 AM | #99 |
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Does it matter? In that price range, no one will see that end of the RS4.
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01-11-2009, 06:41 AM | #101 | |
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Next you disregarded Audi cars because you feel they are 'nose heavy', well some facts about the RS5 and the GTR, they both have similar torque vectoring rear diffs which means they are both more advanced then the BMW system. Also similar is the percentage of weight over each axle, the GTR is 54/46 and that is the bear minimum that Audi will use for the RS5, they both have a dual clutch transmission and both will run FI engines. Now how here thinks the GTR any less the sportscar because of it's awd chassis? |
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01-11-2009, 09:13 AM | #102 |
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those fender flares on the rear of the RS4 look awesome!
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01-11-2009, 11:15 AM | #103 |
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01-11-2009, 02:03 PM | #104 | |
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01-11-2009, 03:09 PM | #105 | |
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01-11-2009, 03:36 PM | #106 | |
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I know we are really discussing the RS4 vs M3 but as the RS5 is only a year away it should really be added into the debate because it is the next new Audi which will take on the M3. I also agree that the RS5 will not be as quick as the GTR, no BMW is either and Audi aren't gunning for the Nissan with the RS5 it's prize is the M3 so all it really has to beat is a 8:05 time if we are discussing the Nurburgring which I believe it will do with ease. Also, will it get 480hp, not likely as that would place it well ahead of the competition. No I would have thought that 450hp would be enough to say ahead of the M3 and the C63. Next thing is the chassis, regardless of what many think about the S5, it grips right to the end and near enough matches the M3 for lateral grip from less magical rubber which is no mean feat, yes it's boring in comparison to the M3, the M3 is be far the best BMW on sale and a joy to drive but the RS5 will get the torque vectoring diff which has done wonders to the X6's ability only this one is far more advanced so I would expect the only understeer to be present is the one all manufacturers add as a safety warning to it's customers that grip limits are getting close or inother words it too will be a joy to drive with throttle steer on demand. The only problem you guys have is the price that Audi will demand for the RS5 in the States, considering the M3 is already so much cheaper than the aging RS4 I suppose the newer car will be even more. Tough pill to swallow, thank god we here in Europe can take price difference over of the mix and judge each car on their merits. |
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01-11-2009, 04:30 PM | #107 | ||
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Well said Footie, I really don't hate AWD that much. I actually like it, I just prefer RWD. RWD>AWD>FWD. My main prob with Audi is the cars from which they are based. As a previous VW owner, my memories are not fond. I put Acura in the same boat. They take a FWD car, throw on AWD and think that I'll forget what this car's roots are. FWD cars are the furthest thing from a sports car. It's why as great as a car an Acura is, I wouldn't buy it knowing what the basis is. Audi and Acura do the same thing, and I don't buy it. It's not like the 911, or older skylines which were/are based on RWD platforms, which are the proper basis for any true sports car. I don't argue the advantages or the utility of AWD, but I'll wait until the pinnacle of racing(drag included) makes the switch before I think about changing my mind.
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01-11-2009, 06:17 PM | #108 | |
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In fact, our effing Neon was an absolute delight on track, arguably more fun than either of the M3s that have graced our garage. Piece of crap? Sure. It was bought as a sacrificial New England winter car, after all. But after one track session, our (then E36) M3 never saw the track again. Yeah, fwd cars tend to be boring because of their roots, but your blanket statement is inappropriate. Bruce |
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01-11-2009, 08:10 PM | #109 |
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I recently sold my wifes SRT-4 Neon. That car was fun as hell, much more so than my MkIV GTi. But you still can't get away from its FWD econobox roots. On power, it was the equivalent of riding a bull., which made for some serious fun, in a hooligan sort of way. Not in the way of getting around a set a twisties with minimal haste.
For you I will change my blanket statement. FWD cars are closest to a sports car when driven in reverse . More fun than an E36 M3? Wow! I took a ride years ago in a 4 door E36 M3 and the brakes alone are enough to tell me which car I would prefer at the track. I sincerely hope the other M3 that graced your garage wasn't an E30, which I had extensive wheel time in during my college years, or an E46. I don't have much time behind the wheel of an E46, but I've driven King Tut's and that car was heads/tails above my wifes SRT-4 in every aspect of performance (subjective and objective). I can't think of one dedicated sports car that is driven by the front wheels. The only sporting cars that I know of that are driven by the front wheels are cars that are based on an econobox. On the contrary, RWD doesn't automatically mean a sports car either. I don't consider a Mustang, Charger, or Challenger a sports car.
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01-11-2009, 08:14 PM | #110 | |
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