BMW M3 vs Porsche Carrera which is Quicker

[M3 vert]

Originally Posted by devo

What criteria is used to determeine that these guys are "experts"?

The E92 M3 may be and likely is faster in some situations and quite possibly Laguna. However, the track suits the M3 which is fine. Again it is not faster 0-60 in the previous test provided. I'd like to see a real Ring test. The only real car jounalists' are guys like Harris and the Sport Auto crew imo. Test like C&D's are close to comical; far too full of subjective opinions. You know from the start that they are BMW biased.

It's been said countless times before but the M's brakes will not hold up to task after countless laps, whereas the Porsche's will. This point is well documented.

I agree on the brakes part 100%!

You can comment on C&D or for that matter many auto journalists but the facts are present!

I am only commenting on the 911 base vs E92 M3 (stock vs stock)
The S will have an edge but its not going to be night and day and that 15 seconds gap is starting to wear out now?

Honestly if I was to buy a 911 for DD, it would be the turbo!
No other 911 appeals to me (other then perhaps the GT3/GT3 RS for track duty!)

[M3 vert]

Originally Posted by pride355

1 more thing:

In latest Sport Auto test of E92 M3 DKG Competition pack. vs RS5, M3 lapped the the Hockenheim short track 1:14,2 on street tires which is 0,1 sec faster than previous E92 M3 test that was on cup tires.

997.1 Carrera S did it in 1:14,3 in another Sport Auto test (05/2005)
997.2 Carrera S with PDK would probably faster though.

With all of these data, I'm NOT claiming that M3 is faster than Carrera S.
My only claim is that M3 is NOT THAT SLOWER THAN Carrera S.
They are close, but Porsche has the edge.

Exactly!

[M3 vert]

Originally Posted by devo

I agree an M over the .2 base 997. If one one is going 911 then go with the S or above.

Thank you, for me it would start in this order GT3, Turbo, GT3 RS, GT2

[devo]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Until I see it, i dont believe it. ZCP just ran 8:02 on cup tires didnt it?
Even if it ran 8:00 flat, 10 seconds is still A LOT...and not very close at all.



Old 997S did 1:14.3 but I belive it was on PS2s.
The new Cayman S did 13:9 and you can bet the 997S is faster than that, probably 1:13.5/,6

The 997S does have more than an edge though. Most lap times it has a significant advantage by 1-2 seconds on short under 2 minute laps.

+1.

BMW and Porsche brought relative ringers to their respective Ring parties. I still believe that the gap is closer to 15 seconds. You're right even 10 seconds is a long freaking time. Try standing at the finish line and count to ten while waiting for the M; that's a long, long visible gap.

The facellifted S is quite a car. It takes a lot to gain time at this level -unless you're Nissan; they tweak a front shock and get 5 seconds.

Look at the .2 RS vs the .1. Another 35 hp, 30-40 lbs less, shorter gearing, much better torque, very well sorted suspension, huge tire contact; even over the .1 (325/245 vs. 305/235), wider front track w/RSR suspension and much more downforce for what 7-9 seconds or so!

[devo]

Originally Posted by M3 vert

Thank you, for me it would start in this order GT3, Turbo, GT3 RS, GT2

Once you get the GT2, you'll be lusting for the GT2RS!

I found the 997 turbo (I had a 2007) to be a little boring in the sense that it went so fast so easily and uneventfully. My gt3 is much more fun.

[jdgamble]

Oh oh oh! I have a question! Given that the Carrera S MSRP starts around $90K and the M3 around $55-60K, are these cars really direct competitors?

JK... but this one got WAY out of hand!

[devo]

Originally Posted by jdgamble

Oh oh oh! I have a question! Given that the Carrera S MSRP starts around $90K and the M3 around $55-60K, are these cars really direct competitors?

JK... but this one got WAY out of hand!

Oh, oh, oh.... I have an answer: equally equipped cars are closer to a $25k delta. Still a lot of dough but a lot more car for that extra dough; just joking, I think. Yes, it has gotten out hand and I'm proud that I directly contributed to that.

[RevFreak14]

Since people keep saying how the GT3 will destroy an M3 (it will), why don't we get some numbers on the M3 GTS agaisnt the GT3?? A GT3 against a base M3 is not a fair comparison IMHO. Especially when you consider the price of a GT3 vs the standard M3. You could by 3 M3's for the price of one GT3. Why don't we compare the GT3 against the M3 GTS and see what's what? Anyone know where to get some numbers for the GTS????

[jdgamble]

Originally Posted by devo

Oh, oh, oh.... I have an answer: equally equipped cars are closer to a $25k delta. Still a lot of dough but a lot more car for that extra dough; just joking, I think. Yes, it has gotten out hand and I'm proud that I directly contributed to that.

Hmmm... I just priced a Carrera S online and I don't think comparably equipped cars are 25K different... I'd say somewhere between 30-35K, but admittedly it's hard to price due to the number of options available on the S. Good God I think keys are an option! Either way, I still think it's a slightly unfair comparison. I got my E90 for under $57K brand new... what Porsche could I buy for that?

[devo]

Originally Posted by jdgamble

Hmmm... I just priced a Carrera S online and I don't think comparably equipped cars are 25K different... I'd say somewhere between 30-35K, but admittedly it's hard to price due to the number of options available on the S. Good God I think keys are an option! Either way, I still think it's a slightly unfair comparison. I got my E90 for under $57K brand new... what Porsche could I buy for that?

When I looked I found the price to be wthin $25k. It's easy to be overwhelmed by Porsche's configurator. The M isn't any better; a base M doesn't come with much except keys. You just don't have as many options to choose from.

[devo]

Originally Posted by RevFreak14

Since people keep saying how the GT3 will destroy an M3 (it will), why don't we get some numbers on the M3 GTS agaisnt the GT3?? A GT3 against a base M3 is not a fair comparison IMHO. Especially when you consider the price of a GT3 vs the standard M3. You could by 3 M3's for the price of one GT3. Why don't we compare the GT3 against the M3 GTS and see what's what? Anyone know where to get some numbers for the GTS????

A gt3 may be pricey (it's worth it) but it's not 3x the price; not even 2x the price. Mine was $123k w/everything a discerning buyer wants and some extras. A well equipped M is $70-$72k. It's not the Porsche people comparing the gt3, it's some M owners citing how they beat some .1 gt3 somewhere with their modded M3. Hmmm... try that on the track.

[pride355]

The GT3 is the ultimate track weapon.
No question there..

[Kyoshi71]

http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...into-a-porsche

[yemenmocha]

Actually if you search this forum you'll see a poll I posted about which sports cars are not as fast as the M3, and it included a lot of exotics. That will give you a nice list of Porsches, Ferraris, Aston Martins, etc. that the forum folks think can't stand up to an M3.

Threads like that one and this one are hilarious.

[RevFreak14]

Originally Posted by devo

A gt3 may be pricey (it's worth it) but it's not 3x the price; not even 2x the price. Mine was $123k w/everything a discerning buyer wants and some extras. A well equipped M is $70-$72k. It's not the Porsche people comparing the gt3, it's some M owners citing how they beat some .1 gt3 somewhere with their modded M3. Hmmm... try that on the track.

I stand corrected. I'm not a big Porsche guy, I thought the GT3 would be more than the Turbo S. Still, you're talking about nearly twice the price. I just don't think it's fair to compare two cars that are in completely different price ranges. I think you can compare the M3 to the Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera 4, Carrera 4S, but once you start talking about cars that are well over $100k, it's a different league IMHO.

[devo]

Originally Posted by RevFreak14

I stand corrected. I'm not a big Porsche guy, I thought the GT3 would be more than the Turbo S. Still, you're talking about nearly twice the price. I just don't think it's fair to compare two cars that are in completely different price ranges. I think you can compare the M3 to the Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera 4, Carrera 4S, but once you start talking about cars that are well over $100k, it's a different league IMHO.

Agreed.

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Actually, since you bring it up...heres the link of the M3 GTS review i posted in the general section.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408135

Some quotes, which answer your question of the GT3 vs M3 GTS.

"A standard GT3 Clubsport is a better, more rounded machine...It is £20k cheaper"

"But it (GTS) struggles for traction next to the Porsche, doesn’t steer as sweetly and isn’t as fast - in a straight line or in terms of lap time."

that is not good. I think alot of that has to do with the weight. it's made no sense how they came up with only 70kg with all that crazy weight saving stuff. bmw could have done better IMO.

[Dartanium]

Not sure if its the weight, the chassis, the engine layout, Carreras just "feel" better when you on a twisty road driving a little above average speed. The feedback is phenomenal, even a non-GT3/RS shows how well the rear grips even though more weight is back there, you would never know the engine is behind the rear axle if you didn't bother to look. So if the car is more confidence inspiring then I would think it could be driven faster.

[pride355]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Actually, since you bring it up...heres the link of the M3 GTS review i posted in the general section.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408135

Some quotes, which answer your question of the GT3 vs M3 GTS.

"A standard GT3 Clubsport is a better, more rounded machine...It is £20k cheaper"

"But it (GTS) struggles for traction next to the Porsche, doesn’t steer as sweetly and isn’t as fast - in a straight line or in terms of lap time."

It is not cheaper in Europe.
It would be cheaper in the States IF you could import the car.
In Germany base GT3 is over 120.000 Euro in base trim and GTS is 110.000 Euro (both prices include V.A.T. which is 19%)

Don't mix the price of US spec GT3 and only-euro spec GTS.

[pride355]

Actually M3 GTS is main rival to GT3 RS.
M3 CSL was more like GT3.

GTS is harder core.

[graider]

Originally Posted by pride355

Actually M3 GTS is main rival to GT3 RS.
M3 CSL was more like GT3.

GTS is harder core.

you got it wrong.

gts vs gt3
gts-r vs gt3 rs

I just don't understand why bmw has to waste time with modify the m3 when they can just bring a water down version of this z4 gt3 and put it directly against the porsche gt3. i think that would put up a more serious fight. http://www.worldcarfans.com/11003222...tails-released

with the z4 dimension, it would be far easier to trim the weight instead of going with the m3 which naturally has a bigger dimension to accomodate the rear seats. I think 3000-3100lbs is very possible in this case. not to mention it looks bad ass, better than the gt3 IMO. I wouldn't mind driving that thing on the street even if it looks exactly like those pic, LOL. maybe raise it up a little. imagine a z4 gt3 with the 4.4L v8 in the gts...insane. offer it in both MT and DCT is a plus. even if they come out with something like this at the same price as the gt3 or rs, i'm sure they will sell like hot cake.

i can't really understand what m division is thinking. the know how is there and they already have the z4 gt3 build. i mean this is exactly what porsche is doing. bring a water down version of a race car to the street. notice how much similar the gt3 and rs compare to the gt3 rsr and that's how they win a lot of fan.

[pride355]

Originally Posted by graider

you got it wrong.

gts vs gt3
gts-r vs gt3 rs

There is no GTS-R yet

GTS has no rear seats, has a build in roll cage, only bucket seats, adjustable (and also front splitter) rear wing, no radyo/CD and no A/C (but they are optional).

GT3 on the other hand is more like CSL. GT3 has proper rear seats, no roll cage (but it is optional), proper front seats (but the buckets are optional). GT3 is a proper road car but has huge track potential. GT3 RS is a proper track car but can be used on the streets.

Nevertheless, we can agree to disagree, but to me, GTS is more like GT3 RS in nature. CSL was like GT3.

Let me put it this way; 6 years ago, I wanted to buy CSL but couldn't. It was a perfect daily with a huge track potential. Now, even if I could had the chance of buying GTS, I wouldn't buy it because it is too hard core for street driving, IMO.