Bearing clearance discussion!

[PhillyNate]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

One of the local master technicians met with the senior /// engineer from Germany. The word is that BMW acknowledges that there is bearing issue due to tight clearance. But BMW will assess each failure on a case-by-case basis and extend a goodwill warranty cover. The catch is that, the car must have an ongoing dealership service history, at least oil changes, to confirm factory spec oil and filter have been used each time. If this is the case, regardless of the miles or years, BMW will help owners out.

I've heard this from a very reliable third party. I am just putting it out there for information only. No flame please.

Also the same /// engineer was quoted saying, hang on to the ///3s with S65 engines because it's last of the /// cars with /// DNA and built at the /// centre (I don't know much about this one). All current and future /// cars including 3, 5 and 6 will be series builds along with other non-/// cars.

Somewhat reassuring. If BMW will goodwill possibly and stand behind this wonderful product I may indeed keep the car. This issue was the ONLY reason along with the allure of a Porsche that I would ever dream of parting with the car to begin with.
...and future classic? Just sayin'

[MiamiE93Vert]

A conceptual question for those with more knowledge on this subject than me:

I live in Miami, FL and my car will always be located in the warm weather. From reading the discussion, the problem with clearance and oil coverage revolves around a cold start when the oil is cold. Due to the car being in warm weather all the time, should this be less of a risk or concern for me or is the ambient temperature not enough of a factor to influence the problem/results? Is there (should there be) any correlation between the two? Do we have a rough geographic idea for the locations of rod bearing failures?

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by lsmkr01

I hope this comes to light in the near future. I started a 5k oil interval service so taking it in every 3rd change to keep the record wouldn't be a terrible idea. Please, let us know if you end up hearing more information on this.

I am thinking of the same. In my case I should have only one oil change recorded with the dealer and should be coming up for the second soon. But I have three with the dealer and I have done three myself. But I have kept all the receipts for the filter and the TWS oil I bought through the dealer for proof of purchase of genuine BMW parts.

My biggest dilemma is whether I should open up the engine or leave it. In all probability and for my bad luck I might have perfect bearings and end up losing $3200 or bearings will be shit and then hope BMW covers it, and then along with that comes an extended warranty for the engine, which is not a bad idea.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I am thinking of the same. In my case I should have only one oil change recorded with the dealer and should be coming up for the second soon. But I have three with the dealer and I have done three myself. But I have kept all the receipts for the filter and the TWS oil I bought through the dealer for proof of purchase of genuine BMW parts.

My biggest dilemma is whether I should open up the engine or leave it. In all probability and for my bad luck I might have perfect bearings and end up losing $3200 or bearings will be shit and then hope BMW covers it, and then along with that comes an extended warranty for the engine, which is not a bad idea.

The $3200 isn't worth it to me, labor to do a full motor would be around 8k

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by 8k3

how many miles?

64.5K

Originally Posted by aussiem3

One of the local master technicians met with the senior /// engineer from Germany. The word is that BMW acknowledges that there is bearing issue due to tight clearance. But BMW will assess each failure on a case-by-case basis and extend a goodwill warranty cover. The catch is that, the car must have an ongoing dealership service history, at least oil changes, to confirm factory spec oil and filter have been used each time. If this is the case, regardless of the miles or years, BMW will help owners out.

I've heard this from a very reliable third party. I am just putting it out there for information only. No flame please.

Also the same /// engineer was quoted saying, hang on to the ///3s with S65 engines because it's last of the /// cars with /// DNA and built at the /// centre (I don't know much about this one). All current and future /// cars including 3, 5 and 6 will be series builds along with other non-/// cars.

Sounds like your dealer wants you service with them for the life of the vehicle!

I have done my own changes. One change I bought the oil from someone who sold his car so I have no way to prove it.

[WallyM5]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I am thinking of the same. In my case I should have only one oil change recorded with the dealer and should be coming up for the second soon. But I have three with the dealer and I have done three myself. But I have kept all the receipts for the filter and the TWS oil I bought through the dealer for proof of purchase of genuine BMW parts.

My biggest dilemma is whether I should open up the engine or leave it. In all probability and for my bad luck I might have perfect bearings and end up losing $3200 or bearings will be shit and then hope BMW covers it, and then along with that comes an extended warranty for the engine, which is not a bad idea.

Don't worry nobody has opened up the bottom end and said the bearings looked great. If you have 50,000 miles or more you should consider the job. 3200 is very expensive for this job, at a local Indy you should be looking at 2000.00.

[valerio1]

Originally Posted by regular guy

We all thought the same thing and many arguments have been fought over this topic. But a few weeks ago, I got to the bottom of it. Realoem removed the old part number from their database, and this is why we all thought the rod bearing part number had not changed.

Here's what I posted in another thread:

Got a lot more information. There have apparently been three different S65 crankshafts, and two sets of connecting rods. Maybe somebody with better BMW connections (hint, hint, Tom@EAS) can fill in the blanks. You will be surprised, I even found +.001 bearings and they are currently available!

BTW, this wasn't easy to track down. Had to look in catalogs out of country, etc. Called local dealer and confirmed they are all valid part numbers, and +size bearings are still available using these part numbers.

Crankshafts:
11 21 7 838 641 Crankshaft, Ended (no date given), no weight given
11 21 7 841 658 Crankshaft, Ended (October 2008), 20.400 kg
11 21 0 443 639 Crankshaft, Current production, 23.840 kg

Main Bearings:
11 21 7 841 488 Main Bearing Top, Yellow, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 609 Main Bearing Top, Yellow, Replaced 488 bearing
11 21 7 841 489 Main Bearing Top, Green, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 610 Main Bearing Top, Green, Replaced 489 bearing
11 21 7 841 490 Main Bearing Top, Violet, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 611 Main Bearing Top, Violet, Replaced 490 bearing
11 21 7 841 483 Main Bearing Bottom, Yellow, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 605 Main Bearing Bottom, Yellow, Replaced 483 bearing
11 21 7 841 484 Main Bearing Bottom, Green, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 606 Main Bearing Bottom, Green, Replaced 484 bearing
11 21 7 841 485 Main Bearing Bottom, Violet, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 607 Main Bearing Bottom, Violet, Replaced 485 bearing

Rod Bearings:
11 24 7 838 089 Rod Bearing Blue, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 703 Rod Bearing Blue, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Replacement for 089 bearing.
11 24 7 838 091 Rod Bearing Blue, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available

11 24 7 838 088 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 702 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Replacement for 088 bearing.
11 24 7 838 090 Rod Bearing Red, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available

I have verbal confirmation that some bearings replaced at another SoCal shop have 088/089 stamped on the back. So this would be pretty strong evidence along with information posted by Tom & B767capt that the rod bearings have indeed been superseded since production began. Most likely they were superseded in October 2008 when the crankshaft and main bearings were superseded. I will take pictures when I see these bearings in person.

Since I posted this, I ordered and received samples of each of these rod bearings including the oversized bearings. Yesterday, I measured and photographed all of the rod bearings.

Rod Bearings:
11 24 7 838 089 Blue, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, 0.07890" Thick, Ended
11 24 7 841 703 Blue, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, 0.07890" Thick, Replacement for 089 bearing
11 24 7 838 091 Blue, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, 0.08370" Thick, Currently available

11 24 7 838 088 Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, 0.07875" Thick, Ended
11 24 7 841 702 Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, 0.07875" Thick, Replacement for 088 bearing
11 24 7 838 090 Red, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, 0.08370" Thick, Currently available

Here's a photo of the old and new bearings side-by-side with part numbers shown. As seen in the photo, the bearing surfaces are quite different.

Attachment 913003

Hi regular guy,

I am looking for the oversized bearings 11 24 7 838 090 and 11 24 7 838 091. Can you please advise where I can order them from? I live in Europe and I was informed they cannot be found here. I am in need, man, your help will be appreciated! Thanks

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by valerio1

Hi regular guy,

I am looking for the oversized bearings 11 24 7 838 090 and 11 24 7 838 091. Can you please advise where I can order them from? I live in Europe and I was informed they cannot be found here. I am in need, man, your help will be appreciated! Thanks

Unfortunately, these oversized bearings are no longer available. I called my local dealer, and they checked the US inventory. According to my dealer, the parts were discontinued by BMW-AG and no replacements or updates were offered.

That leaves you with a few choices.
1) Locate a new or used crankshaft. Buying used would be a lot cheaper. Anybody who builds stroker engines in Europe should be able to sell you a used crankshaft at a pretty good price.
2) Weld up your existing journals, and resize them to original specifications. I've never been a fan of this approach, but then again I'm not an engine builder. Maybe some of the engine builders can chime in and advise on this topic.
3) If you can find another BMW bearing with same width, but smaller journal diameter, then you can grind the S65 journals down to this smaller size and use the other bearings. I probably wouldn't change the journal size by more than 1 to 3 millimeters. Again, some of the engine builders on the forum might be able to advise on this topic.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Unfortunately, these oversized bearings are no longer available. I called my local dealer, and they checked the US inventory. According to my dealer, the parts were discontinued by BMW-AG and no replacements or updates were offered.

That leaves you with a few choices.
1) Locate a new or used crankshaft. Buying used would be a lot cheaper. Anybody who builds stroker engines in Europe should be able to sell you a used crankshaft at a pretty good price.
2) Weld up your existing journals, and resize them to original specifications. I've never been a fan of this approach, but then again I'm not an engine builder. Maybe some of the engine builders can chime in and advise on this topic.
3) If you can find another BMW bearing with same width, but smaller journal diameter, then you can grind the S65 journals down to this smaller size and use the other bearings. I probably wouldn't change the journal size by more than 1 to 3 millimeters. Again, some of the engine builders on the forum might be able to advise on this topic.

A used crank would be the way to go...... But, welding up the journals and machining/re-hardening them is totally acceptable and is done regularly by us on hard to source cranks or where lead time is an issue.