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      04-22-2017, 08:02 PM   #1
OzCraig
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She's running rich!

Hi all,

May I please ask a quick tech question for those familiar with the S65.

Car:
09 E90
94,000kms
Car driven occasionally, kept on CTEK when not being driven.
Plugs changed <2000kms ago

Reason:
Exhaust pipes are constantly black. Took it for a decent launch from a standstill and it was like a diesel in the rearview mirror.
The last few longer highway journeys have returned a worse than normal fuel economy.
I also get some light pinging under load, mostly below 2000rpm, lower speeds or take off.

What have I done:
I have pulled the codes and I only have 2, neither are related to the O2 sensors etc For diagnosis transparency they are 00279D - Electric fan motor activation (Not sure exactly what this is but the fan turns on and off as normal).
00A6D1 - Short circuit to positive or open circuit - additional water pump (Apparently there is a little electric water pump that runs when you use the REST function. I never use it so I'm not overly bothered).

Question:
Being that the S65 does not run an airflow meter, are the only reference points the O2 sensors (Appears to be 2 of them) and the MAP sensor? Or am I missing another reference sensor somewhere?
And is it possible for one of the contributing sensors for air/fuel mix to be dodgy but not throw a code?

Being that I am getting no error codes do I just throw it in the dyno and see what the AF curve is doing?

Thanks guys,

Craig

Last edited by OzCraig; 04-24-2017 at 12:44 AM.. Reason: Speeling
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      04-23-2017, 10:56 PM   #2
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I can't answer your question but be patient. People don't roll through here like a Facebook or Twitter. They generally just look if they have an issue themselves or they're killing time. I'm sure someone will come through for ya. I would pull my plugs and inspect them, their ports and the top end of the motor for oil. I'd inspect all those for signs of an oil leak that you are burning off in the exhaust. Your diesel comment made me giggle but that comes off as burnt oil to me. An oil leak from a failed gasket seems likely here.
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      04-23-2017, 10:57 PM   #3
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The primary wideband o2 sensors will start to read off a bit before they throw codes.

I replaced mine as they looked a bit fouled and car runs much better.
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      04-23-2017, 10:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrit View Post
The primary wideband o2 sensors will start to read off a bit before they throw codes.

I replaced mine as they looked a bit fouled and car runs much better.
How old & milleage?
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      04-23-2017, 11:00 PM   #5
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Maybe there is a bad plug (know you recently changed), bad gas, or something blocking the intake. When you launched was it from a cold or warm start? Also, do you have a stock exhaust (where all four are black)?
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      04-23-2017, 11:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Maybe there is a bad plug (know you recently changed), bad gas, or something blocking the intake. When you launched was it from a cold or warm start? Also, do you have a stock exhaust (where all four are black)?
He described black smoke coming out the back "like a diesel". Diesels do this if you floor it from a stop.....just a black cloud of diesel burn off and it's normal. But the S65 on gas???? Not just dirty tips.
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      04-23-2017, 11:37 PM   #7
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1) Run out the tank of gas completely, and then fill it up with something else.

2) Check your plugs, maybe they were gapped wrong, or you just got a shitty plug. They're not too expensive, if you can stomach the cost, replace them again.

3) Check your coilpacks. I thikn they should be fine, since if they were misfiring, you'd get a code from them potentially. However, at 94K KM, if you can afford it, I'd change them too.

4) 4) MAP Sensor is only $150 from ECS Tuning, so, I'd go this route next if

5) 02 Sensors aren't too overly expensive. Replace them if you can/want.

You could also look into getting an ECU Update Flash, to the new 240/241 Software I believe from Alex @ Alpine.
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      04-24-2017, 12:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrippy View Post
I can't answer your question but be patient. People don't roll through here like a Facebook or Twitter. They generally just look if they have an issue themselves or they're killing time. I'm sure someone will come through for ya. I would pull my plugs and inspect them, their ports and the top end of the motor for oil. I'd inspect all those for signs of an oil leak that you are burning off in the exhaust. Your diesel comment made me giggle but that comes off as burnt oil to me. An oil leak from a failed gasket seems likely here.
Copy that

The puff out the back is black though so I don't think it's oil burn or else it would be white/blue I would imagine. Definitely going to pull plugs and give them a good look to see mix, oil etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrit View Post
The primary wideband o2 sensors will start to read off a bit before they throw codes.

I replaced mine as they looked a bit fouled and car runs much better.
Aha! Thankyou. That's what I'm leaning towards at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Maybe there is a bad plug (know you recently changed), bad gas, or something blocking the intake. When you launched was it from a cold or warm start? Also, do you have a stock exhaust (where all four are black)?
Launched when fully up to temp, not a launch control launch mind you, it was just a WOT take off in MDM mode.
Car is mechanically stock so bog standard unmodified OEM exahust. All 4 pipes are quite black. I scrub them once a week and they are now black all the time. When I first picked the car up it stayed clean as a whistle for months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by becausephilchow View Post
1) Run out the tank of gas completely, and then fill it up with something else.

2) Check your plugs, maybe they were gapped wrong, or you just got a shitty plug. They're not too expensive, if you can stomach the cost, replace them again.

3) Check your coilpacks. I thikn they should be fine, since if they were misfiring, you'd get a code from them potentially. However, at 94K KM, if you can afford it, I'd change them too.

4) 4) MAP Sensor is only $150 from ECS Tuning, so, I'd go this route next if

5) 02 Sensors aren't too overly expensive. Replace them if you can/want.

You could also look into getting an ECU Update Flash, to the new 240/241 Software I believe from Alex @ Alpine.
1) Done and done. No change unfortunately.
2) Pulling them tonight to have a quick look and see what they show
3) Yeah no missing at the moment, if it starts I'll grab codes and start swapping packs around to chase.
4) Yeah for the minimal cost it is worth doing to rule out some options
5) This was my 1st thought being that the car is Alpha N and not MAF based

According to the original owner (I'm the 2nd) the car has the BPM and GTS-DCT tune but being that when I picked the car up from the dealer absolutely EVERYTHING on the car was reset I am thinking it may have been reflashed to OEM. Fun!

Thank you guys
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      04-24-2017, 08:03 PM   #9
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Okey doke,
Pulled the plugs and they were all fine. Gaps were spot on, no tracing, no residue, no oil, no carbon.
So the next step I'm thinking is the MAP sensor and see how it goes.
Fun times
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      04-24-2017, 09:18 PM   #10
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Is your car on the stock tune?
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      04-24-2017, 09:39 PM   #11
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No idea to be honest. I don't have a tuning cable and I'm not sure how to check otherwise.
If someone locally (Sydney) has a way to check we can rule that one out.
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      04-25-2017, 05:13 AM   #12
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I assumed still started to happen. I would swap map sensor and get new Primary 02 sensors
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      04-25-2017, 10:16 PM   #13
OzCraig
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Yeah I think you are on the same page as me.
Ordering the MAP sensor this week. I'll spin some spanners and swap it over and see how it goes.
I'll give an update for others once it's in and done

Cheers,
Craig
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      04-26-2017, 12:11 PM   #14
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Do you have your cats removed?
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      04-26-2017, 10:05 PM   #15
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100% stock exhaust
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      04-26-2017, 10:34 PM   #16
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Check the low fuel pressure sensor. Mine was making noises like it needs a valve job in a more chattering way.
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      04-27-2017, 12:18 AM   #17
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Good point mate! I was reading about that the other day and it appears that it foul up and not throw a code. Looks like a dead easy DIY too.
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      04-27-2017, 02:08 AM   #18
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I was getting increased emissions and the back was dusty black. Sometimes serpentine belt makes those chattering ticky noises especially if you when the a/c is on. This also means it will break lol

Edit: also most of the time there was no codes but I could feel the engine pull wasn't accurate as it is in stock power increase levels.
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      05-01-2017, 09:21 PM   #19
OzCraig
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Bit of an update - So a symptom that seems to be slowly exacerbating is the car almost stalling on startup. If there is any heat in the engine it doesn't do it though. After a bit of a cough it idles perfectly fine. I pulled the codes and got nothing of significance so that didn't help. From what I have read though this is one of the symptoms of the low pressure sensor going bad.

Here is a vid from this morning:

https://goo.gl/photos/BuFxbEXDwwsVEMpp7

Anyone else had this kind of start?

Craig
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      05-10-2017, 05:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzCraig View Post
Bit of an update - So a symptom that seems to be slowly exacerbating is the car almost stalling on startup. If there is any heat in the engine it doesn't do it though. After a bit of a cough it idles perfectly fine. I pulled the codes and got nothing of significance so that didn't help. From what I have read though this is one of the symptoms of the low pressure sensor going bad.

Here is a vid from this morning:

https://goo.gl/photos/BuFxbEXDwwsVEMpp7

Anyone else had this kind of start?

Craig
OzCraig - Hi. I am having slightly similar conditions as you.

1) Black tips
2) decreased MPG....although I'm probably closer to 15 mpg (mix of freeway/local)....if it's pure local stop and go, then I drop down to the low 14 mpg range. For reference, when I got the car a couple years ago, I was closer to 17 mpg avg.
3) Unlike yours, I am code-free, with the exception of the A6D1 (secondary heat pump).
4) have changed the plugs recently, so they are good. O2 sensors were replaced about 10k ago

I'm leaning towards clogged or bad spary pattern on the injectors, which is probably resulting in more fuel being dumped in the combustion chamber. Running a bottle of Techron does improve....but then I notice the effect wearing off and actually, I think after a couple bottles, you may be clogging the injector filters.

So my plan is pull the injectors and send for cleaning. Won't be able to get to that until the June timeframe. Other culprit, could be the low fuel pressure sensor, although I'm not getting any codes. If you are up for changing the low pressure sensor on your car and seeing how that works, that would be a good data pt to have! Thx.
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      05-10-2017, 05:42 PM   #21
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Techron clogs your injectors?
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      05-10-2017, 06:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimiraikkonen View Post
OzCraig - Hi. I am having slightly similar conditions as you.

1) Black tips
2) decreased MPG....although I'm probably closer to 15 mpg (mix of freeway/local)....if it's pure local stop and go, then I drop down to the low 14 mpg range. For reference, when I got the car a couple years ago, I was closer to 17 mpg avg.
3) Unlike yours, I am code-free, with the exception of the A6D1 (secondary heat pump).
4) have changed the plugs recently, so they are good. O2 sensors were replaced about 10k ago

I'm leaning towards clogged or bad spary pattern on the injectors, which is probably resulting in more fuel being dumped in the combustion chamber. Running a bottle of Techron does improve....but then I notice the effect wearing off and actually, I think after a couple bottles, you may be clogging the injector filters.

So my plan is pull the injectors and send for cleaning. Won't be able to get to that until the June timeframe. Other culprit, could be the low fuel pressure sensor, although I'm not getting any codes. If you are up for changing the low pressure sensor on your car and seeing how that works, that would be a good data pt to have! Thx.

Hey mate,

I'm not actually getting any codes to do with air or fuel delivery, so I'm 'kinda' code free as well.
I have booked in to Advan on Tuesday to go over the car, throw it on the dyno, etc to trace what is causing the issue.
I think you are on the same wavelength as me, I am leaning towards fuel delivery as per the video it struggles to start, once started it misses and pops and carries on for the first minute or two, after that it free revs fine, then it clanks and pings under load.
I'm thinking low pressure sensor or MAP sensor, but we'll find out Tuesday I guess

Cheers,
Craig
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