Warranty Void!!!

aussiem3 · 10-08-2009, 07:39 AM

When ever you go for a warranty issue the data is downloaded. There are three levels:

1. What the dealer can see
2. What your country or regional technical centre can see
3. What Munich can see.

If you go in for a engine warranty issue, the downloaded data will travel beyond your dealership. They can disect everything the engine has done and been through.

Given my knowledge of this I will not touch the engine. Even the slightest tune like changing the parameters for O2 reading will be enough for BMW to knock back a warranty claim.

The regional manager can always authorize and extend some goodwill but not when you have intentionally fiddled with the car. I have seen cars including myself being extended the goodwill well after the warranty has expired in Australia. That's because I had a clean sheet.

So be mindful of this.

What has happened to elmariachi is a classic case. Whether the tuned caused it or it was existing issue with the car - you or I can't prove it. Given the current financial crisis everybody is trying to cut cost and that includes BMW. So if they can knock back an expensive warranty claim like this where the engine is concern then you're simply playing into their hands. Most often it's the labour that's expensive.

JMD0977 · 10-08-2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

Did you increase the RPM limiter with the ECU tune? If yes, that's a smoking gun for bent valves. There appears to be very little margin on the valve springs in this motor. There's now starting to appear quite a few stories of bent valves and broken valve springs with over-revved motors.

+1

I'm sure they looked at the ECU report and it shows a number of over-revs which is enough to void engine warranty.

King Tut · 10-08-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I have a DCT and I am ABSOLUTELY sure there was no increase done to the RPM limiter. In fact, it doesnt make sense to since the stock motor have a big dip after 8k RPM.

There is no big dip. My car pulled all the way to the 8300 RPM cut off.

powertrip · 10-08-2009, 12:51 PM

Can you not read?? The problem is that they voided the warranty on his engine AND his transmission. How does voiding the warranty on his transmission sound "perfectly normal"

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I don't see the problem...you messed with the cars ECU, you now have an engine problem and BMW aren't prepared to fix it or continue giving you a warranty on it..sounds perfectly normal.

jimmyeatsworld · 10-08-2009, 01:20 PM

I've heard of people with E60 M5s with SMG problems, and BMW NA wouldn't cover the warranty due to the ECU tune.

powertrip · 10-08-2009, 01:24 PM

Hmmm, that sucks

. I was under the impression that the engine and DCT operate off of seperate ECU's?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyeatsworld

I've heard of people with E60 M5s with SMG problems, and BMW NA wouldn't cover the warranty due to the ECU tune.

Singletrack · 10-08-2009, 01:29 PM

I have never heard of an ECU tune resulting in a bent valve. Now if the rev limiter was raised, I could see that being an issue. As the OP said, it is a DCT, so he should not be capable of overreving it through user error.

How did they determine that the valve was bent? I've always heard a lot of valvetrain noise on my car.

satinghostrider · 10-08-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertrip

Can you not read?? The problem is that they voided the warranty on his engine AND his transmission. How does voiding the warranty on his transmission sound "perfectly normal"

?

Exactly.

1. Dealer screwed up DCT by changing the oil. Now we all k ow how common this is and how quite a few of you guys got a new tranny because of this. Now, I informed them when I was about to drive my car off when I was looking through the invoice. Had I not read through the invoice, a new tranny would be in my car today. Now, my warranty for that is gone as well and a problem that got me an extension of 6 more month warranty on the gearbox is now suddenly void because engine and drivetrain components are not covered anymore.

2. BMW Asia failed to address the problem and told me my car was normal. But they told me along with that that my warranty is void. Which essentially means I sent in my car for warranty to just be voided.

3. There was no RPM limiter removal whatsoever. I may have hit the limiter a few times but most of us had anyway. I normally shift immediately.

4. I hold myself responsible for the engine be it my fault or an inherent fault with the engine but to deny warranty on the drivetrain which had no problems now is suicide cause you never know if the dealer screw up could be a long term effect.

Hope this clears the air.

lucid · 10-08-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiem3

When ever you go for a warranty issue the data is downloaded. There are three levels:

1. What the dealer can see
2. What your country or regional technical centre can see
3. What Munich can see.

If you go in for a engine warranty issue, the downloaded data will travel beyond your dealership. They can disect everything the engine has done and been through.

Given my knowledge of this I will not touch the engine. Even the slightest tune like changing the parameters for O2 reading will be enough for BMW to knock back a warranty claim.

The regional manager can always authorize and extend some goodwill but not when you have intentionally fiddled with the car. I have seen cars including myself being extended the goodwill well after the warranty has expired in Australia. That's because I had a clean sheet.

So be mindful of this.

What has happened to elmariachi is a classic case. Whether the tuned caused it or it was existing issue with the car - you or I can't prove it. Given the current financial crisis everybody is trying to cut cost and that includes BMW. So if they can knock back an expensive warranty claim like this where the engine is concern then you're simply playing into their hands. Most often it's the labour that's expensive.

I was told the exact same thing about those 3 levels of transparency. The regional rep apparently has software the dealer does not have, which gives him access to data the dealer cannot access. I don't know the specifics and if the additional data allow the regional rep to determine if the ECU has been flashed or not, but they does provide deeper insights for sure. It is also true that although major warranty claims are decided by the regional rep, the dealership has influence in that process and can cover certain issues even after the warranty expires.

John@BMW · 10-08-2009, 02:40 PM

Im sorry about what you are going through- Ive worked for BMW for a long time and they will pull some SNEAKY stuff.

I would get a lawyer-

Incompetent BMW dealership employees and greedy/selfish managers really ruin the "aftersales" experience.

You do not have a bent valve until BMW proves it.

Too bad you are not in the USA-

read this-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

BPMSport · 10-08-2009, 02:55 PM

I too have NEVER heard of an ECU tune causing a bent value. Usually the only way to bend a valve is with physical contact with the piston, which would be caused by an Over-Rev Situation.

I don't think there would be piston/valve contact even at 8700 RPM. On top of that, even if the variable valve timing fails completely, there is still no way for the pistons to hit the valves with the way this motor is designed.

I am very curious to find out what tune you have. In fact, if you send in your DME, I will check to see exactly what has been modified in the code, and will let you know if this failure is most likely related to the tune. All free of charge.

It just sounds really strange to me. I guess if the motor was excessively hot that you could potentially bend a valve, but this is unlikely - ESPECIALLY with all of the factory safeguards present in these ECU's. They are designed to keep the motor safe no matter how hard you beat on the car. They are smart, very smart.

I ran my car on the track twice in extremely hot weather, foot to the floor. Absolutely no problems. If you were tuned by an experienced tuner I'm inclined to say that you would still be on the road.

I am also interested in how the dealer found out your DME was tuned. My guess is that a rookie tuned the car and left clues that tipped the dealer off.

Just food for thought:
I tuned my friends 335i with a higher than normal boost tune. It was romping all over cars that you would think would absolutely dust a 335i. At 40,000 miles, his car threw a connecting rod bearing. Took it in the the dealer (still tuned), and they replaced his engine under warranty. The failure was not caused by the tune, it was caused by a week bottom end. This is not to say that the extra stress from the raised boost levels did not exacerbate the condition. However, M3's are NA and should NEVER NEVER NEVER have the issues you described. Something fishy is going on with your situation, and I'm inclined to say that your tuner increased the timing way too much, and then also raised or removed the knock detection parameters which keep the car within safe ranges. In our tunes, we retain all of the factory fallback and safety programming, ensuring that you car is reliable as stock 100% of the time.

I'm sorry that happened to you and good luck with getting your car fixed. I have been in the tuning industry since 2002, and am so confident that there is no downside to a tune, that every single car I have ever owned has had one. All serviced and maintained at the dealer. Never an issue - not once.

FStop7 · 10-08-2009, 03:04 PM

A bent valve is a mechanical failure. The only way that could have been caused by a tune is if the rev limiter was raised.

powertrip · 10-08-2009, 03:21 PM

I wonder how high it was raised (if at all)? Dinan moves their limiters up to 8600 rpms....glad I went with Powerchip

.

AMPowerJ · 10-08-2009, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertrip

I wonder how high it was raised (if at all)? Dinan moves their limiters up to 8600 rpms....glad I went with Powerchip

.

Does Powerchip raise the limiter?

JCtx · 10-08-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

Does Powerchip raise the limiter?

Good question man. I'd NEVER allow that on an engine under warranty (I'm not the gambling type, especially with so much at stake, and so little gain). Even if the engine can mechanically withstand the increase, no judge or jury would rule in your favor. It's a slam dunk for the manufacturer. And since the ECU keeps track of max revs, a non-mechanical overrev is an automatic indication of a tune (and warranty).

As far as Dinan, I'd read their fine print to know what the heck they cover under their warranty, especially if they blame the failure on an engine manufacturing defect (which BMW would promptly deny), not their mod, leaving the burden of proof on you

. Worth checking into. Good day gang.

gthirtyfizle · 10-08-2009, 04:26 PM

Powerchip FTMFW....

On second hand... Im really sorry for whats happening with your car. However, If i were you, i wouldnt let it slide that easily.....

powertrip · 10-08-2009, 04:36 PM

I think it's set at 8450 rpms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

Does Powerchip raise the limiter?

BPMSport · 10-08-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertrip

I think it's set at 8450 rpms.

Correct. And we can keep it stock at customers request. BMW would never claim that 8450 or even 8600 was an overrev. 8,600 is pushing the envelope but is still not high enough to illicit any engine damage in terms of valve contact with pistons.

aussiem3 · 10-08-2009, 05:05 PM

How in the world can a layman prove to a giant like BMW that a tune didn't cause the malfunction, and that's only if they detect a tune. Surely something of this magnitude - a warranty claim on an M engine - is not going to stop with the dealer or the regional tech, it will go straight to Munich because they will want to get to the bottom of the issue.

This means they will check the parameters in the ECU and I am sure they will have the expertise to find any kind of tune. To believe a very professionally done ECU tune is undetectable is being very naive in my opinion.

The only reason I am saying this is because unlike in the past, all warranty claims are closely looked at by BMW. So even the dealers' hands are tied when it comes to certain things.

I am not against tuning the car. I tuned my E46 M3 thru DMS and had no issues until I sold it after seven very enjoyable years of driving.

But if the warranty is knocked back then you're up for a very expensive bill. That's the bottom line.

foosh · 10-08-2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiem3

How in the world can a layman prove to a giant like BMW that a tune didn't cause the malfunction, and that's only if they detect a tune. Surely something of this magnitude - a warranty claim on an M engine - is not going to stop with the dealer or the regional tech, it will go straight to Munich because they will want to get to the bottom of the issue.

This means they will check the parameters in the ECU and I am sure they will have the expertise to find any kind of tune. To believe a very professionally done ECU tune is undetectable is being very naive in my opinion.

The only reason I am saying this is because unlike in the past, all warranty claims are closely looked at by BMW. So even the dealers' hands are tied when it comes to certain things.

I am not against tuning the car. I tuned my E46 M3 thru DMS and had no issues until I sold it after seven very enjoyable years of driving.

But if the warranty is knocked back then you're up for a very expensive bill. That's the bottom line.

Very well expressed, and I'm in 100% agreement.

bigjae1976 · 10-08-2009, 05:28 PM

Hopefully this works out for the OP. There's always this danger when tuning cars under warranty. Not saying the tune caused the issue but I'm referring to the battles with your dealership.

Can't blame BMW though...all this is costing them money in a time that they are losing LOTS of market share to Audi.

xxe92xx · 10-08-2009, 05:56 PM

There's only 3 reasons why they would void your warranty (Just my thoughts)

1. you over revved your engine, due to no rpm limiter because you got your ecu flashed
2. the engine had some kind of defect from the factory (it is possible), but wouldnt matter because they found out you got your ecu flashed
3. they found out you flashed the ecu before everything n threw you a big ass bill

Can whoever did your ecu flash revert it back to stock settings? If so, I would have done this before I went to my dealership..

10-08-2009, 07:39 AM	#23
aussiem3 Colonel 274 Rep 2,664 Posts Drives: Goggomobil Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kangaroo land iTrader: (1) Garage List 2017 BMW X6/// F86 [0.00]	When ever you go for a warranty issue the data is downloaded. There are three levels: 1. What the dealer can see 2. What your country or regional technical centre can see 3. What Munich can see. If you go in for a engine warranty issue, the downloaded data will travel beyond your dealership. They can disect everything the engine has done and been through. Given my knowledge of this I will not touch the engine. Even the slightest tune like changing the parameters for O2 reading will be enough for BMW to knock back a warranty claim. The regional manager can always authorize and extend some goodwill but not when you have intentionally fiddled with the car. I have seen cars including myself being extended the goodwill well after the warranty has expired in Australia. That's because I had a clean sheet. So be mindful of this. What has happened to elmariachi is a classic case. Whether the tuned caused it or it was existing issue with the car - you or I can't prove it. Given the current financial crisis everybody is trying to cut cost and that includes BMW. So if they can knock back an expensive warranty claim like this where the engine is concern then you're simply playing into their hands. Most often it's the labour that's expensive. __________________ F86 X6///
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10-08-2009, 01:20 PM	#27
jimmyeatsworld Second Lieutenant 7 Rep 213 Posts Drives: 2008 E92 M3 6MT Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Orange County iTrader: (0)	I've heard of people with E60 M5s with SMG problems, and BMW NA wouldn't cover the warranty due to the ECU tune. __________________ RPI GT Race Exhaust ~ RPI Scoops ~ BMC Air Filter ~ 19" BBS LM DBK ~ JL Motoring VRS Front Lip ~ Vorsteiner Diffuser Type I ~ KW Clubsports My RPI GT Race Dyno vs. Stock: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239228
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10-08-2009, 01:29 PM	#29
Singletrack 4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade. 87 Rep 3,850 Posts Drives: 09 SSII E92 M3; 19 FG M5C Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA iTrader: (3)	I have never heard of an ECU tune resulting in a bent valve. Now if the rev limiter was raised, I could see that being an issue. As the OP said, it is a DCT, so he should not be capable of overreving it through user error. How did they determine that the valve was bent? I've always heard a lot of valvetrain noise on my car.
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10-08-2009, 02:40 PM	#32
John@BMW I can't belive this car is a 4 door family sedan. 66 Rep 385 Posts Drives: 2008 M3 sedan, '96 M3 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Atlanta iTrader: (1)	Im sorry about what you are going through- Ive worked for BMW for a long time and they will pull some SNEAKY stuff. I would get a lawyer- Incompetent BMW dealership employees and greedy/selfish managers really ruin the "aftersales" experience. You do not have a bent valve until BMW proves it. Too bad you are not in the USA- read this- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act __________________
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10-08-2009, 02:55 PM	#33
BPMSport BimmerPost Supporting Vendor 3387 Rep 7,541 Posts Drives: Harrop M3 / F10 M5 / F82 M4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SoCal iTrader: (9) Garage List 2000 BMW M5 [0.00] 1990 BMW 735i Turbo [0.00] 2008 BMW M3 [7.50] 2015 BMW M3 [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 [0.00]	I too have NEVER heard of an ECU tune causing a bent value. Usually the only way to bend a valve is with physical contact with the piston, which would be caused by an Over-Rev Situation. I don't think there would be piston/valve contact even at 8700 RPM. On top of that, even if the variable valve timing fails completely, there is still no way for the pistons to hit the valves with the way this motor is designed. I am very curious to find out what tune you have. In fact, if you send in your DME, I will check to see exactly what has been modified in the code, and will let you know if this failure is most likely related to the tune. All free of charge. It just sounds really strange to me. I guess if the motor was excessively hot that you could potentially bend a valve, but this is unlikely - ESPECIALLY with all of the factory safeguards present in these ECU's. They are designed to keep the motor safe no matter how hard you beat on the car. They are smart, very smart. I ran my car on the track twice in extremely hot weather, foot to the floor. Absolutely no problems. If you were tuned by an experienced tuner I'm inclined to say that you would still be on the road. I am also interested in how the dealer found out your DME was tuned. My guess is that a rookie tuned the car and left clues that tipped the dealer off. Just food for thought: I tuned my friends 335i with a higher than normal boost tune. It was romping all over cars that you would think would absolutely dust a 335i. At 40,000 miles, his car threw a connecting rod bearing. Took it in the the dealer (still tuned), and they replaced his engine under warranty. The failure was not caused by the tune, it was caused by a week bottom end. This is not to say that the extra stress from the raised boost levels did not exacerbate the condition. However, M3's are NA and should NEVER NEVER NEVER have the issues you described. Something fishy is going on with your situation, and I'm inclined to say that your tuner increased the timing way too much, and then also raised or removed the knock detection parameters which keep the car within safe ranges. In our tunes, we retain all of the factory fallback and safety programming, ensuring that you car is reliable as stock 100% of the time. I'm sorry that happened to you and good luck with getting your car fixed. I have been in the tuning industry since 2002, and am so confident that there is no downside to a tune, that every single car I have ever owned has had one. All serviced and maintained at the dealer. Never an issue - not once. __________________ -----\| Like us on Facebook \| Instagram \|\| Tuning Information \| Remote Coding \|----- ----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. \| Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
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10-08-2009, 03:04 PM	#34
FStop7 I like cars 329 Rep 5,052 Posts Drives: M6 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Newbury Park, CA iTrader: (3)	A bent valve is a mechanical failure. The only way that could have been caused by a tune is if the rev limiter was raised. __________________ My photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/racelap/
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10-08-2009, 03:21 PM	#35
powertrip Scared money don't make money. 67 Rep 1,449 Posts Drives: 2009 E92 M3 DCT Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Irvine, CA iTrader: (3) Garage List 2009 E92 M3 [0.00]	I wonder how high it was raised (if at all)? Dinan moves their limiters up to 8600 rpms....glad I went with Powerchip . __________________ 2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS
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10-08-2009, 04:26 PM	#38
gthirtyfizle Colonel 191 Rep 2,867 Posts Drives: E92 M3 AW Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NYC iTrader: (4)	Powerchip FTMFW.... On second hand... Im really sorry for whats happening with your car. However, If i were you, i wouldnt let it slide that easily.....
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10-08-2009, 05:05 PM	#41
aussiem3 Colonel 274 Rep 2,664 Posts Drives: Goggomobil Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kangaroo land iTrader: (1) Garage List 2017 BMW X6/// F86 [0.00]	How in the world can a layman prove to a giant like BMW that a tune didn't cause the malfunction, and that's only if they detect a tune. Surely something of this magnitude - a warranty claim on an M engine - is not going to stop with the dealer or the regional tech, it will go straight to Munich because they will want to get to the bottom of the issue. This means they will check the parameters in the ECU and I am sure they will have the expertise to find any kind of tune. To believe a very professionally done ECU tune is undetectable is being very naive in my opinion. The only reason I am saying this is because unlike in the past, all warranty claims are closely looked at by BMW. So even the dealers' hands are tied when it comes to certain things. I am not against tuning the car. I tuned my E46 M3 thru DMS and had no issues until I sold it after seven very enjoyable years of driving. But if the warranty is knocked back then you're up for a very expensive bill. That's the bottom line. __________________ F86 X6///
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10-08-2009, 05:28 PM	#43
bigjae1976 Major General 1570 Rep 8,075 Posts Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX iTrader: (22) Garage List 2004 BMW M3 [4.50] 2011 BMW E90 M3 [5.25] 2013 BMW 328i [5.00]	Hopefully this works out for the OP. There's always this danger when tuning cars under warranty. Not saying the tune caused the issue but I'm referring to the battles with your dealership. Can't blame BMW though...all this is costing them money in a time that they are losing LOTS of market share to Audi. __________________ 2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red 2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue
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10-08-2009, 05:56 PM	#44
xxe92xx Banned 37 Rep 780 Posts Drives: 08 M3 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI iTrader: (2)	There's only 3 reasons why they would void your warranty (Just my thoughts) 1. you over revved your engine, due to no rpm limiter because you got your ecu flashed 2. the engine had some kind of defect from the factory (it is possible), but wouldnt matter because they found out you got your ecu flashed 3. they found out you flashed the ecu before everything n threw you a big ass bill Can whoever did your ecu flash revert it back to stock settings? If so, I would have done this before I went to my dealership..
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