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      03-23-2016, 12:15 PM   #1
Rajmun340
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m4's engine sits a whole 2 inches higher than the S65. Embarrassing m4 facts.

One more shame fact about the m4 that was kept hidden under the rug and that has come to light: the m4 engine sits a whole 2 inches higher than the S65 in the e92 because of the turbo design.

why would that matter ? well it matters for roll. Basically degrading stability and traction when changing heading direction.

Let's take a look a the extra moment of unwanted roll force that this creates:

First recap S55 (m4) engine weight :
kg / lbs : 205/452

m4 extra roll moment : τ = 2 inches x F

=2 / 12 feet * 205 lbs = +/- 34 lbs.ft

Roll is impacted. This means loading the outside wheels more in turns and further explains why the m4 looses its rear too easily, it's not just the engine torque it's the engine adding its weight 2 inches more above center of gravity. The E92 M3 is superior in that regard. If you look at F1 cars all the weight sit extremely low above ground for the same reason.


Last edited by Rajmun340; 03-23-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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      03-23-2016, 12:16 PM   #2
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too bad the m4 beats the e92 m3 in almost every performance category.
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      03-23-2016, 12:40 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb9uwu View Post
too bad the m4 beats the e92 m3 in almost every performance category.
That's is a blanket statement that has little signification. What constitute a performance category is often biased by marketing. One dimensional specs like peak power and torque do not tell anything about throttle response and linearity which improves stability at the limit. The E92 m3 beats the m4 in throttle response, steering feedback among other "performance" categories. In only happens that marketing choose not to show quantifiable data for those, but it's there.

Of course if just comparing lap times then yes the m4 is faster due to forced induction, but the twin turbo that gives that advantages comes with significant drawbacks that IMO are not worth the compromise. The E92 m3 is the better driver's performance car for control, and that elevated m4 engine center of gravity is yet another drawback in the list.

Last edited by Rajmun340; 03-23-2016 at 12:48 PM.
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      03-23-2016, 12:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII View Post
One more shame fact about the m4 that was kept hidden under the rug and that has come to light: the m4 engine sits a whole 2 inches higher than the S65 in the e92 because of the turbo design.

why would that matter ? well it matters a lot for roll. Basically degrading stability and traction when the car is making turns.

Let's take a look a the extra moment of unwanted roll force that this creates:

First recap S55 (m4) engine weight :
kg / lbs : 205/452

m4 extra roll moment : τ = 2 inches x F

=2 / 12 feet * 205 lbs = +/- 34 lbs.ft

Roll is impacted significantly. This means loading the outside wheels more in turns and further explains why the m4 looses its rear too easily, it's not just the engine torque it's the engine adding its weight 2 inches more above center of gravity. The E92 M3 is superior in that regard. If you look at F1 cars all the weight sit extremely low above ground for the same reason.

the rear end in the m3/4 comes out more because of tq lol. just like the c63, astv, ctsv all of them. and since people are so over the head about lag they put tiny turbos on the car to make it respond like a all motor car so now not only does it make tq but it comes in so hard the car break traction. how ever the 2 inches higher is not why the rear end is kicking out not to mention you are comparing a i6 to a v8 the v8 will always have a lower height due to the orientation of the block being a v.
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      03-23-2016, 12:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
the rear end in the m3/4 comes out more because of tq lol. just like the c63, astv, ctsv all of them. and since people are so over the head about lag they put tiny turbos on the car to make it respond like a all motor car so now not only does it make tq but it comes in so hard the car break traction. how ever the 2 inches higher is not why the rear end is kicking out not to mention you are comparing a i6 to a v8 the v8 will always have a lower height due to the orientation of the block being a v.
You misconstrued my meaning, it is not debatable that elevated mass creates additional roll, that's a physical results, point bar.

The torque make the rear come out more easily but when driving at high speed and for example quickly overtaking another car the last thing you want is that the rear comes out, likely to result in crashing both cars. in that situation it's not just the torque, that extra body roll is unwanted !
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      03-23-2016, 01:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII View Post
That's is a blanket statement that has little signification. What constitute a performance category is often biased by marketing. One dimensional specs like peak power and torque do not tell anything about throttle response and linearity which improves stability at the limit. The E92 m3 beats the m4 in throttle response, steering feedback among other "performance" categories. In only happens that marketing choose not to show quantifiable data for those, but it's there.

Of course if just comparing lap times then yes the m4 is faster due to forced induction, but the twin turbo that gives that advantages comes with significant drawbacks that IMO are not worth the compromise. The E92 m3 is the better driver's performance car for control, and that elevated m4 engine center of gravity is yet another drawback in the list.
I guess lap times don't mean anything then. Crap M4's
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      03-23-2016, 01:18 PM   #7
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Guys, hey its not a competitor! It's all one breed!
Dont make yourself such a head about facts like these...
An ///M will always stay an ///M no matter how high or low or sleak or wide or heavy or light, you ever get it.
The E9x and the F8x...
none of them is better or worster then the other.
As for me...I love these M4's!
Why?
It's an ///M, an ///M, baby!
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      03-23-2016, 01:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsix View Post
Guys, hey its not a competitor! It's all one breed!
Dont make yourself such a head about facts like these...
An ///M will always stay an ///M no matter how high or low or sleak or wide or heavy or light, you ever get it.
The E9x and the F8x...
none of them is better or worster then the other.
As for me...I love these M4's!
Why?
It's an ///M, an ///M, baby!
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      03-23-2016, 01:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsix View Post
Guys, hey its not a competitor! It's all one breed!
Dont make yourself such a head about facts like these...
An ///M will always stay an ///M no matter how high or low or sleak or wide or heavy or light, you ever get it.
The E9x and the F8x...
none of them is better or worster then the other.
As for me...I love these M4's!
Why?
It's an ///M, an ///M, baby!
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      03-23-2016, 01:58 PM   #10
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We have an appreciate button, where's the don't appreciate button for OP?
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      03-23-2016, 02:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII View Post
One more shame fact about the m4 that was kept hidden under the rug and that has come to light: the m4 engine sits a whole 2 inches higher than the S65 in the e92 because of the turbo design.

why would that matter ? well it matters for roll. Basically degrading stability and traction when changing heading direction.

Let's take a look a the extra moment of unwanted roll force that this creates:

First recap S55 (m4) engine weight :
kg / lbs : 205/452

m4 extra roll moment : τ = 2 inches x F

=2 / 12 feet * 205 lbs = +/- 34 lbs.ft

Roll is impacted. This means loading the outside wheels more in turns and further explains why the m4 looses its rear too easily, it's not just the engine torque it's the engine adding its weight 2 inches more above center of gravity. The E92 M3 is superior in that regard. If you look at F1 cars all the weight sit extremely low above ground for the same reason.

I guess BMW M should hire you to design their cars right?

They clearly have no idea what they're doing...
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      03-23-2016, 02:02 PM   #12
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I recently returned my E92 M3 after a 39 month lease and test drove the M4 as well. While I have not yet purchased the M4, I have to say I was extremely impressed with the car. It definitely does not have the same sound as the E92, but with the decreased weight and extra torque, it was still mesmerizing to drive. The interior is a huge step up over the E92 and in addition to the performance, it actually looks like a 80k car now too.

Personally, these attacks on the M4 are stupid as shit IMHO. No one with the intent of purchasing an M4 will be convinced to do otherwise and those that believe that the E92 is the greatest M3 of all time will still think so after. So whats the point of all these debates? HUGE waste of time as the M4 literally beats the E92 in almost every single performance category. Do I miss the V8 and wish they threw turbos onto that instead? Yeah I do, but after driving one at high speeds (Been with my dealer for 10+ years so they let me do whatever) and seeing first hand how the car is, I am definitely interested in staying with M family.
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      03-23-2016, 02:10 PM   #13
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i like both cars. they are just different tools for different jobs. I prefer the e92 but that isnt at the expense of affection for the f8x. I will just own and drive the one I personally want.
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      03-23-2016, 02:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cenix View Post
We have an appreciate button, where's the don't appreciate button for OP?
The first couple days of the "appreciate" feature on M3post they had included a negative value button. People had too much fun with that and some of us had a rating below -150 in a matter of hours. It was quickly revised to be all positive. So now we tell each other how much we suck but can't do it numerically.
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      03-23-2016, 02:16 PM   #15
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How about just own one of each and be done with it!
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      03-23-2016, 02:21 PM   #16
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Is this thread for real? OP you're late to the game, F8X bashing was last year....
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      03-23-2016, 02:34 PM   #17
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both are great cars this was a interesting read. I had the opportunity to run a M4 off the line, i got the jump when the light turned green. He stayed with me, but couldn't over take me. Must of been the throttle response...
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      03-23-2016, 03:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemdog View Post
The first couple days of the "appreciate" feature on M3post they had included a negative value button. People had too much fun with that and some of us had a rating below -150 in a matter of hours. It was quickly revised to be all positive. So now we tell each other how much we suck but can't do it numerically.
Too PC. It's the eroding of 'Merica. Like giving every kid a trophy for trying.
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      03-23-2016, 04:11 PM   #19
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No one points out the fact that E92 owners' penises are a whole 2 inches shorter than F80 owners'.
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      03-23-2016, 04:32 PM   #20
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I would love to have an M4 even if it is at risk of rolling over on turns.
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      03-23-2016, 04:34 PM   #21
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lol ok
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      03-23-2016, 04:48 PM   #22
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E92 m3 .. bcuz race car! amirite guise?
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