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      03-21-2016, 02:30 PM   #1
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E92 Vs. E90

I had a couple questions for the E90's and 6MT's owners out there:

1. Are there any performance advantages between the two chassis?

2. Does the 6MT auto rev match on downshifts like my DCT does? Reason I'm asking is I watched a few videos of a 6MT in action and I could swear it sounded exactly like a DCT "barks" on downshifts.

Either way, I will be selling my E92 soon to get a E90 6MT.


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      03-21-2016, 02:32 PM   #2
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1. differences are minimal (or so I understand from previous posts)
2. No auto rev-matching, very satisfying + rewarding to get the blip juuuuust right
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      03-21-2016, 02:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by BimmerRookie View Post
1. differences are minimal (or so I understand from previous posts)
2. No auto rev-matching, very satisfying + rewarding to get the blip juuuuust right
1. good to know!

2. so what happens if you don't get it juuuuust right? Do you get jerked around violently as a penalty from the transmission? haha
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      03-21-2016, 02:48 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Uber V8 View Post
1. good to know!

2. so what happens if you don't get it juuuuust right? Do you get jerked around violently as a penalty from the transmission? haha
It can be pretty jerky if you don't get the rev match right. Also potentially damaging to the transmission... but driving manual requires practice so you'll eventually get it.
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      03-21-2016, 02:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber V8 View Post
2. so what happens if you don't get it juuuuust right? Do you get jerked around violently as a penalty from the transmission? haha
On the street in normal driving conditions nothing happens. However, screw it up badly enough on the track and you transfer too much weight to the front end and can spin. Not as much a concern on a full weight E90/92 as a lighter mid/rear engine car.
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      03-21-2016, 04:03 PM   #6
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I've been driving manuals most of my life, but for whatever reason I've never tried rev matching on a downshift until this DCT introduced me to the idea.
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      03-21-2016, 04:25 PM   #7
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I think the e90 has better handling b/c of more support, i.e B pillars and window frames. But, this might be offset by the sunroof and no carbon option.
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      03-21-2016, 04:44 PM   #8
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I think the e90 has better handling b/c of more support, i.e B pillars and window frames. But, this might be offset by the sunroof and no carbon option.
Is that why the "slick roof" option is popular for E90? Assuming slick roof means no sunroof or carbon roof.
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      03-21-2016, 04:49 PM   #9
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Is that why the "slick roof" option is popular for E90? Assuming slick roof means no sunroof or carbon roof.
Yes, if you can find one (slicktop, no CR for e90). Happy hunting.
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      03-21-2016, 04:51 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Uber V8 View Post
Is that why the "slick roof" option is popular for E90? Assuming slick roof means no sunroof or carbon roof.
I believe the term is "slicktop" that's used around here. And yes, it is a popular delete for the enthusiasts. It's the only gripe I have about the E90 M3's (and mine since I have sunroof). There should've been the carbon option for sedans from the factory as well.
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      03-21-2016, 05:27 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Uber V8 View Post
Thanks for the feedback guys. I've been driving manuals most of my life, but for whatever reason I've never tried rev matching on a downshift until this DCT introduced me to the idea.
You've never rev matched downshifts? How quickly did you go through clutches?
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      03-21-2016, 06:03 PM   #12
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1. The most dramatic difference would be seating position in the driver's seat, but other than that, if you can feel a difference in performance between the E90 m3 and E92 m3 (given same option, same stock wheels + tire), you should be a DTM race driver.

In fact, a well known test driver (Tsuchiya, aka drift king in Japan) who went through 30 yrs of Tsukuba circuit testing 5000 cars on Best Motoring Magazine, did a lap on the Tsukuba circuit (1.287 miles), on same equipped M3 coupe (Nav, CF roof, stock 18 inch, 6MT) and Sedan (Nav, No sunroof, stock 18 inch, 6MT), and the E90 sedan was 0.33 sec faster around the track than E92.
It says something, especially this guy who's more stable at track than any other race driver and the circuit was only 1.2 miles long...



2. E9X gen 6MT does not come with rev matching system, the only "electronic assist" MT has is hill assist.
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      03-21-2016, 06:12 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cenix View Post
I believe the term is "slicktop" that's used around here. And yes, it is a popular delete for the enthusiasts. It's the only gripe I have about the E90 M3's (and mine since I have sunroof). There should've been the carbon option for sedans from the factory as well.
Yea I agree. I've seen one member convert his E90 roof to CF. Must have been ungodly expensive.

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Originally Posted by Iyzmi View Post
You've never rev matched downshifts? How quickly did you go through clutches?
Haha, I usually coast until a stop then shift to neutral. What I'm referring to is how loud, violent and quick the downshifts sounds coming from the S65 compare to say my previous Evo X GSR.
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      03-21-2016, 07:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaehshim View Post
1. The most dramatic difference would be seating position in the driver's seat, but other than that, if you can feel a difference in performance between the E90 m3 and E92 m3 (given same option, same stock wheels + tire), you should be a DTM race driver.

In fact, a well known test driver (Tsuchiya, aka drift king in Japan) who went through 30 yrs of Tsukuba circuit testing 5000 cars on Best Motoring Magazine, did a lap on the Tsukuba circuit (1.287 miles), on same equipped M3 coupe (Nav, CF roof, stock 18 inch, 6MT) and Sedan (Nav, No sunroof, stock 18 inch, 6MT), and the E90 sedan was 0.33 sec faster around the track than E92.
It says something, especially this guy who's more stable at track than any other race driver and the circuit was only 1.2 miles long...
Same video I was going to link. Glad I was able to find a 2011(w 17k) with ZCP as its only option. Manual everything and no sunroof of course.
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      03-21-2016, 08:19 PM   #15
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1. technically, yes. For you, likely no. There's a weight and center of gravity advantage to the E92. The E92 with a CF roof weighs 35 lbs less than a E90 with no moonroof. But b/c you're not a pro driver, ham fisted and clumsy, you won't "realize" any performance advantage from a 35 lb weight reduction.

2. Absolutely no. The video you're watching are people who are performing it perfectly. IMO, using Power or Power + setting allows quicker blip throttle downshifts, which allows you to do a quicker rev match downshift. But others can perfect it in normal throttle application as well.

To do what they do, there's only one word:

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      03-21-2016, 08:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mPlasticDesign View Post
Same video I was going to link. Glad I was able to find a 2011(w 17k) with ZCP as its only option. Manual everything and no sunroof of course.
Dammit that sounds perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
1. technically, yes. For you, likely no. There's a weight and center of gravity advantage to the E92. The E92 with a CF roof weighs 35 lbs less than a E90 with no moonroof. But b/c you're not a pro driver, ham fisted and clumsy, you won't "realize" any performance advantage from a 35 lb weight reduction.

2. Absolutely no. The video you're watching are people who are performing it perfectly. IMO, using Power or Power + setting allows quicker blip throttle downshifts, which allows you to do a quicker rev match downshift. But others can perfect it in normal throttle application as well.

To do what they do, there's only one word:
Have we met?

Perhaps the power + setting is what I was noticing in the videos. That and as you mentioned perfect rev matches.
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      03-21-2016, 09:19 PM   #17
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Performance-wise, it isn't a huge difference. You do get the carbon roof with the coupe, which lowers weight/center of gravity some. But supposedly the sedan is a tad more balanced front to back. Unlikely you can tell the difference.
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      03-23-2016, 12:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber V8 View Post
Thanks for the feedback guys. I've been driving manuals most of my life, but for whatever reason I've never tried rev matching on a downshift until this DCT introduced me to the idea.
How long has this life devoid of rev matching while driving manuals been?? My first manual transmission car was my E92 that I bought in May 2011, but before I picked it up I became as book smart about driving manual as I possibly could be so that I wouldn't break the car or cause an accident on my way home. That included learning how a manual transmission actually works so that I understood WHY you're supposed to do or not do certain things. I've since realized that learning that way allowed me to learn proper technique (rev matching, heel-toe, double clutching on skip shifts) and avoid bad habits (resting foot on clutch, clutching in every time you brake, keeping clutch depressed at stop lights, etc) in a way that some people who learned just by jumping into a car didn't seem to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber V8 View Post
Haha, I usually coast until a stop then shift to neutral.
Even that isn't right. If you don't want to downshift while slowing, you should shift to Neutral when you would otherwise stall the car in your current gear, not wait until you get to a stop, otherwise you have to hold the clutch down the whole time you're slowing, which is not only uncomfortable and will wear out your throwout bearing, but it will also cause your car to jerk significantly if you have to let the clutch back out to get into gear without blipping the throttle. If you instead shift into Neutral and coast that way, then if you need to get back into gear before stopping (e.g. a red light you're coming up to changes before you arrive), then blip the throttle while in Neutral -- WITHOUT pressing the clutch first so that you spin up the synchros too -- and then shift into an appropriate gear for your speed and revs. But on that subject, even if you don't downshift while coming to a stop, I don't see why that's an explanation for never having rev matched -- what about when you need to downshift because you're slowing down without stopping (e.g. for a tight corner) or you want more acceleration, especially if you want to downshift by more than one gear? Do you just gradually slip the clutch into gear and deal with the car bucking while the gear change takes a lot longer than it needs to? If you still have a car with a manual transmission I'd go out and practice rev matching now. 4>3 is the easiest one given the speeds, rev match differential, and gear shift involved. Your clutches will last much longer, you'll be able to perform gear changes much more quickly, and once you get the hang of it, they'll be much smoother as well since you won't be asking your wheels to give up some momentum to spin up the engine anymore. It also just makes driving a manual a whole hell of a lot more fun because you're constantly chasing that perfectly rev-matched downshift where your car neither lunges forward nor bucks and slows down, and you feel like a total hero when you get it perfectly right. And while some cars can be almost completely silent on rev matches, with the S65 you get to hear a very life-affirming rev from the engine when you rev match, which makes the experience that much sweeter. That's the "barking" sound you would've heard from the 6MT videos. It's not automatic rev matching; it's just people driving the car properly! And once you get rev matching down, you can move on to heel-toe.

And no meaningful difference in performance between the E90 and E92. I prefer the E92 for styling, the extra cabin lighting you get down the sides, and the fact that not having a B-pillar eliminates a lot of the wind buffeting that plagues the E90 when at near-freeway speeds with the windows down. The E92 also has fold-down rear seats as standard, whereas they're an option on the E90 if that matters to you.
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      03-23-2016, 01:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
How long has this life devoid of rev matching while driving manuals been??


Even that isn't right. You should shift to Neutral while coasting, otherwise you have to hold the clutch down the whole time, which is not only uncomfortable and will wear out your throwout bearing, but it will also cause your car to jerk significantly if you have to let the clutch back out to get into gear without blipping the throttle.

And no meaningful difference in performance between the E90 and E92. I prefer the E92 for styling, the extra cabin lighting you get down the sides, and the fact that not having a B-pillar eliminates a lot of the wind buffeting that plagues the E90 when at near-freeway speeds with the windows down. The E92 also has fold-down rear seats as standard, whereas they're an option on the E90 if that matters to you.
Wow, thank you for some awesome and detailed feedback!

I guess this would be the point to clarify so I don't look like a complete e-tool. I've been driving manuals for close to 16 years and although never professionally trained I definitely downshift when slowing down and all other applicable situations. I've felt one one or two times what happens when you thought you did a 4>3 downshift and got neutral instead then need to speed up and kind of have to "guess" and get the rev's high enough to get back in gear!

So before this turns into a "how to shift" discussion I think the main thing I've been noticing is the difference between a perfectly rev matched downshift and a lazy, slow downshift. I'd like to think I'm somewhere in between so I have some practicing to do. I love the fact that just the thought of a 6MT will encourage me to get it just right.

Now I have to find the right one


Great point about fold down seats being optional on the E90, that's huge to me for my music gear.

EDIT: Your GT4 is absolutely beautiful!
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      03-23-2016, 01:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber V8 View Post
Wow, thank you for some awesome and detailed feedback!

I guess this would be the point to clarify so I don't look like a complete e-tool. I've been driving manuals for close to 16 years and although never professionally trained I definitely downshift when slowing down and all other applicable situations. I've felt one one or two times what happens when you thought you did a 4>3 downshift and got neutral instead then need to speed up and kind of have to "guess" and get the rev's high enough to get back in gear!

So before this turns into a "how to shift" discussion I think the main thing I've been noticing is the difference between a perfectly rev matched downshift and a lazy, slow downshift. I'd like to think I'm somewhere in between so I have some practicing to do. I love the fact that just the thought of a 6MT will encourage me to get it just right.

Now I have to find the right one


Great point about fold down seats being optional on the E90, that's huge to me for my music gear.

EDIT: Your GT4 is absolutely beautiful!
Happy to help! Yeah, you'll have a blast once you back into a manual transmission car and can start playing around with rev matching, especially one with an engine that barks on downshifts, since not all do. I remember when I drove a friend's 335i and it was basically silent on downshifts except making some noise on 3>2 because the revs were so high, and that definitely took some of the fun out of twisty road driving. And btw in case it wasn't clear, you'll hear people talking about rev matching as blipping the throttle. The reason is that when you rev match while the clutch is in, you do NOT want to try to find the right spot on the throttle and hold it there while re-engaging the clutch. That's even more wear. While the clutch is in, you want to quickly press the throttle far enough to blip the revs higher (while shifting into the desired gear), then quickly let off the throttle, then gradually add throttle back as you let the clutch back out. It sounds more complicated describing it than it actually is in practice, and actually YouTube might be helpful here. Each gear requires a different amount of blip (6>5 requires almost none, and 3>2 requires a big one), but it should become muscle memory before too long. Good luck with your E90 search, and thanks for the GT4 comments!
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      03-23-2016, 02:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
How long has this life devoid of rev matching while driving manuals been?? My first manual transmission car was my E92 that I bought in May 2011, but before I picked it up I became as book smart about driving manual as I possibly could be so that I wouldn't break the car or cause an accident on my way home. That included learning how a manual transmission actually works so that I understood WHY you're supposed to do or not do certain things. I've since realized that learning that way allowed me to learn proper technique (rev matching, heel-toe, double clutching on skip shifts) and avoid bad habits (resting foot on clutch, clutching in every time you brake, keeping clutch depressed at stop lights, etc) in a way that some people who learned just by jumping into a car didn't seem to.



Even that isn't right. If you don't want to downshift while slowing, you should shift to Neutral when you would otherwise stall the car in your current gear, not wait until you get to a stop, otherwise you have to hold the clutch down the whole time you're slowing, which is not only uncomfortable and will wear out your throwout bearing, but it will also cause your car to jerk significantly if you have to let the clutch back out to get into gear without blipping the throttle. If you instead shift into Neutral and coast that way, then if you need to get back into gear before stopping (e.g. a red light you're coming up to changes before you arrive), then blip the throttle while in Neutral -- WITHOUT pressing the clutch first so that you spin up the synchros too -- and then shift into an appropriate gear for your speed and revs. But on that subject, even if you don't downshift while coming to a stop, I don't see why that's an explanation for never having rev matched -- what about when you need to downshift because you're slowing down without stopping (e.g. for a tight corner) or you want more acceleration, especially if you want to downshift by more than one gear? Do you just gradually slip the clutch into gear and deal with the car bucking while the gear change takes a lot longer than it needs to? If you still have a car with a manual transmission I'd go out and practice rev matching now. 4>3 is the easiest one given the speeds, rev match differential, and gear shift involved. Your clutches will last much longer, you'll be able to perform gear changes much more quickly, and once you get the hang of it, they'll be much smoother as well since you won't be asking your wheels to give up some momentum to spin up the engine anymore. It also just makes driving a manual a whole hell of a lot more fun because you're constantly chasing that perfectly rev-matched downshift where your car neither lunges forward nor bucks and slows down, and you feel like a total hero when you get it perfectly right. And while some cars can be almost completely silent on rev matches, with the S65 you get to hear a very life-affirming rev from the engine when you rev match, which makes the experience that much sweeter. That's the "barking" sound you would've heard from the 6MT videos. It's not automatic rev matching; it's just people driving the car properly! And once you get rev matching down, you can move on to heel-toe.

And no meaningful difference in performance between the E90 and E92. I prefer the E92 for styling, the extra cabin lighting you get down the sides, and the fact that not having a B-pillar eliminates a lot of the wind buffeting that plagues the E90 when at near-freeway speeds with the windows down. The E92 also has fold-down rear seats as standard, whereas they're an option on the E90 if that matters to you.
I agree with almost everything here. The one exception that I would raise is that it is incorrect to say that the coupe has no B pillar. It does (what do you think the shoulder harness portion of the seatbelts are attached to?). It just doesn't have rear windows that open. It isn't just the roof that makes the coupe stiffer than the convertible. It is also the B pillars behind the doors that help connect the 2 sides of the car together at the top.
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      03-23-2016, 02:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
While the clutch is in, you want to quickly press the throttle far enough to blip the revs higher (while shifting into the desired gear), then quickly let off the throttle, then gradually add throttle back as you let the clutch back out. It sounds more complicated describing it than it actually is in practice, and actually YouTube might be helpful here. Each gear requires a different amount of blip (6>5 requires almost none, and 3>2 requires a big one), but it should become muscle memory before too long.
This. right. here... golden. I'm man enough to admit I never knew this. I taught myself how to drive a stick as a teenager and never thought to do anymore research until now. I feel like I missed out on on some good years of shiftin'
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