bbk vs upgrade pads

[OMRITIME]

I wonder if going bbk route
Or different pads
I don't track the car , just point a to b fast....
Thinking on sc but it will be in a year from now
I just boght and m3 2010 dct zcp
And my brake pads about to die
Can someone advise me on
Pads and ss lines and better brake fluid .

I've been with 335 FBo
So I need to learn some on the m3

Thanks

[jritt@essex]

Short answer: Big brake kits are designed to deal with the heat generated from repeated stops at high speed. On the street you'll never come close to generating the type of heat that could be generated on a track. Your best bet is to upgrade to a quality pad and some good brake fluid (even after installing the supercharger). You almost certainly wouldn't need a big brake kit.

A good pad would be something like the Ferodo DS2500:

Front DS2500 for M3

Rear DS2500 for M3

Good brake fluid:
AP Racing DOT 5.1

These pads take a good deal of heat during spirited driving, but are still easy enough to live with for daily driver (reasonably low noise and dust).

Long Answer:

This is something I wrote on a different forum, but it applies here as well...basic brake upgrade guide.

Daily Driver

If you never plan to do anything with your car other than drive it to work every day, there’s a solid chance you’ll be perfectly happy with the OEM brakes as delivered. Just about every modern car today has decent brakes, with far superior technology and performance vs. the cars our parents drove when we were kids. OEM brakes are designed for safety above all else. Any and all other considerations are secondary:

• Shortest stopping distance possible- Every once in a while, a kid chases ball into the road, or a deer jumps from the trees at an inopportune moment. The goal is to stop the car in the shortest possible distance to avoid a collision. The basic brake components are selected to achieve that goal based on the vehicle layout (RWD, FWD, etc.), weight, power, tires, etc.

• Stability- Inclement weather, limited driver skill, and chance all create road conditions that negatively impact a vehicle’s stability. Modern brake systems are designed to maintain as much stability under as many conditions as possible. ABS, traction control, and stability control systems all allow a driver to turn while braking, and help keep the car pointed in the desired direction. These systems also contribute to the point above, getting the car stopped and safe as quickly as possible.

• Repeated stops at max load- Manufacturers know their cars will be driven in rush-hour traffic, filled to the brim with gear from a local big box store, and/or possibly towing something at the vehicle’s max recommended load rating. Under those conditions, the car needs to be able to stop repeatedly in an acceptable manner.

Achieving the above objectives are sufficient for most of the cars on the road. For a specialized sports car, such as the M3, the manufacturer obviously goes a bit above and beyond these essentials. Factors such as pedal feel, pedal travel, pad compound feel, fade resistance under heavier than normal use, etc. all come into play. The manufacturer addresses these issues to make their car a competitive performer in the market, all while attempting to manage their costs as tightly as possible.

If your primary objective with your M3 is to safely take you from one place to another, you’ll be fine with leaving your stock brakes alone.

Spirited Street Driving

Enthusiasts tend to be a little tougher on equipment than ‘non-car’ people. They accelerate, turn, and brake harder on a regular basis, and they have higher performance expectations. Aggressive driving on back roads, canyons, etc. puts more heat into the brake system than running errands ever could. While manufacturers expect a sports car to be driven harder than a minivan, exactly how much harder leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Your idea of being tough on brakes may differ vastly from the engineers’ thoughts on the subject. Below is a list of upgrades that can be considered for aggressive street driving, in order of importance:

High Performance Brake Pads-
Performance pads will be your number one upgrade for improving brake feel and performance if you plan to drive your car hard on the street. I’ve written an in-depth article on how to choose the proper pads for your needs, so please read that article to learn more about pad selection.

Slotted/Drilled Discs-
If you upgrade your pads and still feel like you’re not getting enough bite out of them, you may want to consider slotted or drilled discs.

Slotted discs provide more leading edges for a pad to bite into vs. a plain-face disc, and allow for pad material and water to evacuate the pad/disc interface. They are marginally more prone to cracking than plain face discs, but the added performance of slotted discs is worth the tradeoff to most enthusiasts (assuming the slot pattern is done correctly).

Drilled discs, regardless of whether the holes are cast in or drilled after the casting process, are more prone to cracking than plain face or slotted discs. They do provide even more leading edges for pad bite, and a slight weight reduction. They also look snazzy.

Slotted and drilled discs will wear your pads out more quickly than plain face discs. All of those leading edges assist with bite, but also increase wear rates.

Holes and slots will also make more scraping and whirring noises than plain face discs, so there are some NVH (Noise Vibration Harshness) tradeoffs as well.

Stainless Steel Brake Lines-
While most people won’t notice a tremendous difference under street driving conditions, SS lines can enhance pedal feel, offer greater protection against road debris, and offer a slightly faster reaction time for brake activation.

High Performance Brake Fluid-
It is highly unlikely that you’ll boil your brake fluid under aggressive street driving. The more likely scenario is that you’ll only need to flush your brake fluid at regular service intervals. When you do, it never hurts to go with a slightly higher spec than stock if you plan to drive your car hard off the beaten path.

AutoX

Autocross presents a unique challenge for your car's brakes. Depending on the course layout, the amount of pad heat generated may not be any greater than stop-and-go traffic driving. Many times you never get out of second gear, which means speeds are generally limited to roughly 60 mph or less. Additionally, the flowing nature of a well-designed autocross course means that you don't always scrub off a tremendous amount of speed entering each brake zone. More often than not, you're trail-braking as you approach the apex of the corner, rather than standing on the brakes in a straight line. Therefore, precise control and feedback is what you're looking for in your brakes. Here are some brake upgrades to consider if you autoX your car:

High Performance Brake Pads
As I discuss at length in my choosing pads article, you’ll want a brake pad with good cold bite, predictable torque response, good all-weather performance, and a simple bed-in procedure.

Slotted/Drilled Discs
Braking feel is extremely important in autocross, so for many drivers, slotted or drilled discs are worth the investment for the added touch they impart. Wear rates and NVH are secondary concerns when you’re fighting for every hundredth of a second. Additionally, drilled discs in particular can offer a tangible weight reduction, which can be critical in AutoX.

Stainless Steel Brake Lines-
As with discs, every little bit of added feel can mean the difference between winning or losing in a tightly contested AutoX. As such, properly made SS lines are a no-brainer upgrade with no downside.

High Performance Brake Fluid-
While fade isn’t typically an issue at AutoX, your increased maintenance and continual setup changes will mean that you’re under the car tinkering with your brakes more than you would be if you were only driving it on the street. As such, keeping some high quality brake fluid in the car as added insurance never hurts, nor does a good bleed for maintaining a firm and sensitive brake pedal.

Two-piece Brake Discs-
Unsprung weight is the devil to the avid autocrosser. You should always be looking to maximize weight reduction within the boundaries of the rules (or outside those boundaries if you’re really clever at cheating). Weight reduction in the wheels/brakes/suspension area is particularly beneficial to all aspects of acceleration, turning, and braking, which is the core of autoX. Two piece discs can in some cases offer substantial weight savings. Aftermarket two-piece discs will have aluminum hats that are lighter the stock iron pieces, and their overall construction and vane structure may offer further weight savings. Since you probably won’t be burning your discs up at a rapid rate, the initial cost of a two-piece disc may be worth the weight loss (commonly $600-$1000 per pair). Definitely check the price of replacement iron before making the commitment however. You will eventually have to change the discs since they are a wear item. Also, keep the size of the disc in mind. A larger than stock 2-piece disc may actually weigh more than the OEM units. Also, the larger the diameter of the disc, the greater the moment of inertia, which makes it more difficult to spin the disc from rest.

Caliper Upgrade-
A caliper-only upgrade could be a viable weight reduction option if the calipers are designed to work properly with the M3 master cylinder and discs.

Aftermarket aluminum, fixed-piston, opposed calipers tend to weigh less than OEM cast calipers. However, slapping the calipers from a different vehicle on the M3 can be a recipe for problems. While the parts may technically bolt onto the car, the actual performance may actually be significantly worse than stock. The main reason for this being improper brake bias. I will address this issue several more times throughout this article.

Assuming bias is correct, in addition to a solid weight reduction, fixed piston opposed calipers tend to offer substantially better feel, modulation, and a faster response than OEM sliders/floaters. If the aftermarket caliper has substantially larger pads than stock, some of the overall weight savings may be offset by greater pad weight.

Big Brake Kit/Complete Competition Brake System-
A complete brake system could be beneficial in AutoX for several reasons:

Feel-
Far stiffer, opposed piston calipers can offer dramatic changes in brake pedal feel and modulation. Some highly competitive types will find it worth the price of entry for this reason alone.

Brake Balance/Bias-
Getting the proper balance is very important for AutoX, and is closely related to the feel point above. If the piston sizes and disc diameter are not chosen carefully and properly (assuming you won’t be touching your OEM master cylinder), you will likely hurt your performance rather than help it. Increased (longer) stopping distances (the opposite of what you want), long brake pedal travel, and poor brake pedal feel are just some of the potential negatives of a poorly engineered system.

Weight-
Many complete brake kits shave weight over the stock setup. Even if the stock components and aftermarket components are the same physical dimensions, the aftermarket setup will be lighter 9 times out of 10. Aluminum calipers and aluminum disc hats are typically lighter than the OEM sliders and one-piece discs. As an added bonus, the optimized components can offer a host of benefits if you also track your autoX car. On the other hand, if you add a system with extremely large discs and a huge eight piston caliper, you may be adding unnecessary unsprung weight and rotational mass to the car, and actually hurting your performance in autoX.

HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education)/Time Trial

(Much of what is written below is borrowed from my pad article, but I believe it is important so I'm including it here.)

On a road course, you will always put more heat into your brake system than you will on the street or at an autoX. Please reread that sentence. HPDE is really the first venue I've mentioned thus far where battling heat becomes the critical element in having an effective and reliable brake system.

One of the most interesting aspects of HPDE is the wide range of speeds and driver ability across run groups. As such, it's difficult to recommend a blanket brake solution for an M3 driven at a HPDE. After countless discussions with customers on this topic over the years, I believe there a few key considerations when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial: Driver experience, track layout, vehicle configuration/modification, and tire choice. A careful examination of these factors in your personal situation should help guide you towards an acceptable brake solution. Keep in mind that all of these factors are related, and cannot be considered in isolation from one another.

Driver experience
If you've never driven anywhere but the street, your first couple of trips to the track will most likely not tax your brake system too heavily, right? Not exactly. You being a complete track newbie won't necessarily protect your stock brakes from near total destruction. Novice drivers may be easier on the brakes because their corner exit speeds are lower, their terminal speeds entering brake zones are therefore lower, and there's less kinetic energy being transferred into heat during a given stop. That said, novice track drivers also tend to stab wildly at the brakes, stay on the brakes too long, oscillate between on and off brake, and do all sorts of other things one would never expect! The end result can be some serious brake punishment. It's impossible to say that a novice driver will be fine on stock brake pads based on track experience alone.

Track layout
Long straights followed by tight turns mean your car is decelerating from a very high speed to a very low speed, creating a high energy stop. The distance between stops will also impact the heat retained in your brakes. If a particular track layout has a steady succession of medium straights and tight turns, your brakes don't have much time to cool between stops. That means heat will continually build. Flowing tracks with long sweepers are much easier on brakes (think Willow Springs (big track)). Look closely at the track(s) you'll be driving to determine how demanding they will be on your brakes.

Vehicle configuration/modification
All else held equal, more massive, faster cars place a greater strain on the brake system in a brake zone. An Audi Allroad will require a much larger rotor as a heat sink than a Miata. If you strip 200lbs. out of your car (easier to accelerate), have a quality coilover system (higher cornering speeds), and add 30hp (greater acceleration), you're placing less demand on your brakes in terms of mass, but you'll need to slow down from higher speeds when entering turns.

Tire choice
Tire choice is one of the single greatest factors in determining which brake setup will work for you on the track. The stickier the tire, the more brake you can use, and the more heat you will generate. More grip = more heat. If you're running the low grip tires, or if it rains at an event, you won't be able to generate as much grip, and you won't tax your brakes as much.

So where does all of that leave us when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial? The critical point is, every modification you make to your car and the nut behind the wheel will change the demands on your brake system, and you must adjust accordingly. Just because you used a particular brake pad before, doesn't mean it will work again after you've installed your new turbo kit and Hoosiers. Chances are that after your 25th event, you'll be taxing your brakes very differently than you did during your first event. You'll be hitting higher speeds, entering and exiting corners faster and in a different way, and your car will likely have more grip and power than it did when you started (you'll also be much poorer, but likely happier ). If you typically run Limerock (a short track without many big braking zones), but decide to make a trip to Road America (a crazy fast track with huge brake demands), you need to reconsider how your brakes will be taxed. You must constantly evaluate the overall condition of your brake system, and not be afraid to try new brake setups as both you and your car evolve.

If you want to play it safe and not risk damage to the major components of your brake system, don't EVER drive an OEM pad on a road course. It may be more convenient and seem economical to run stock pads, but it will cost you time and money in the long run. There's also not much worse than wasted track time. When you're sitting in the pits watching your buddy rip down the front straight, and your stock pads are a steaming pile of dust lying inside your wheels, you'll be wishing you spent a couple hundred bucks and took the hour on Friday night to change your pads and bleed your fluid.

Hopefully that is helpful to some folks.

[dparm]

^ Excellent post.

For a street car, just get some grabbier pads and keep the fluid clean. I've not used the DS2500 on the M3, but on my Audi S4 they were an excellent choice. A lot of guys here like Cool Carbon pads too.

Frankly, your tires are a huge part of the equation that's often forgotten about. Check the pressure weekly. If you can engage the ABS on dry pavement, there's not much to be gained from a bigger brake system.

[OMRITIME]

^^ thanks !!!!
Helped me a lot
Who's going to advise brand
pads and slotted rotors?

[dparm]

Originally Posted by OMRITIME

^^ thanks !!!!
Helped me a lot
Who's going to advise brand
pads and slotted rotors?

What's wrong with the stock rotors and pads?

[Hujan]

Thought I'd renew this thread as I've been thinking about a BBK of late.

My original plan was to roll with SS lines, performance fluid, and to swap in track-oriented pads for the track.

But to be honest, I'm not super wild about having to swap pads back and forth every time I want to go to the track. Aside from the labor, it would be a pain to have to constantly be re-acclimating the rotors to the different pad compounds. In light of everything else that goes into a track day, I'm afraid it will be something that would lead me to forego a track session when I otherwise would not.

The question, then, is whether people with BBKs are still having to swap pads between street and track, or if the BBKs lend themselves to being able to use a single pad compound on both the street and track.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Thought I'd renew this thread as I've been thinking about a BBK of late.

My original plan was to roll with SS lines, performance fluid, and to swap in track-oriented pads for the track.

But to be honest, I'm not super wild about having to swap pads back and forth every time I want to go to the track. Aside from the labor, it would be a pain to have to constantly be re-acclimating the rotors to the different pad compounds. In light of everything else that goes into a track day, I'm afraid it will be something that would lead me to forego a track session when I otherwise would not.

The question, then, is whether people with BBKs are still having to swap pads between street and track, or if the BBKs lend themselves to being able to use a single pad compound on both the street and track.

dont worry it wont stop you from going to the track, soon enough it will stop you from driving the car as much on the street and then your retirement and food money will go to mods instead, you will lose your girlfriend because she doesnt want to hear about how you perfected your trailbraking into turn 2 and gained a half second.

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Thought I'd renew this thread as I've been thinking about a BBK of late.

My original plan was to roll with SS lines, performance fluid, and to swap in track-oriented pads for the track.

But to be honest, I'm not super wild about having to swap pads back and forth every time I want to go to the track. Aside from the labor, it would be a pain to have to constantly be re-acclimating the rotors to the different pad compounds. In light of everything else that goes into a track day, I'm afraid it will be something that would lead me to forego a track session when I otherwise would not.

The question, then, is whether people with BBKs are still having to swap pads between street and track, or if the BBKs lend themselves to being able to use a single pad compound on both the street and track.

I am in the group that runs stoptech street performance pads in the 380mm ST60's. I love them on both street and track. They lack the outright bite of a PFC or similar racing pad, but they last awhile, are cheap, and don't squeal.

I'm one of the faster guys at HPDE's and see no need for racing pads on a large bbk unless you really care about the last tenth. I don't.

Oh, and this is true even with slicks.

[pkimM3r]

I swap pads and it only takes 30-40 minutes. The worst part is taking the wheel on/off. With stud kit now it should be way easier.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

I swap pads and it only takes 30-40 minutes. The worst part is taking the wheel on/off. With stud kit now it should be way easier.

The worst part is not having a lift! Something I'm gonna fix soon one way or another.

[SumoJax]

If you are not tracking the car the stock brakes/pads are more than you will ever need and will be smooth and quiet on the street.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by SumoJax

If you are not tracking the car the stock brakes/pads are more than you will ever need and will be smooth and quiet on the street.

I plan to track at least 6 times a year.

With the travel distance (at least 3 hours to the nearest track), and my busy home/work life, I can only dedicate so much time to track prep. Not having to fuss with the brakes would increase my willingness to do events. Ideally, I'd like to get the point where I can just slap on a set of track wheels, check pressures, and go, then wash the car and swap back to my street wheels when I get home. If I could do that, I'd be hitting the track as much as possible.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

dont worry it wont stop you from going to the track, soon enough it will stop you from driving the car as much on the street and then your retirement and food money will go to mods instead, you will lose your girlfriend because she doesnt want to here about how you perfected your trailbraking into turn 2 and gained a half second.

and i thought i was alone with these issues.....

op i swapped my pads for PFC08'S and changed my fluid to PROJECTMU.... its 100% better and this week im installing the BW COOLING PLATES along w/ APEX DUCTS, making it into a full cooling kit...one thing that i noticed is the oem rotors dont handle the extreme heat....rotors for a bbk will handle the heat and have alot less heat cracks....

[1MOREMOD]

i have a lot of heat cracks in my st40s, more so than my oem i think once you have the new more capable stuff you just beat it more.

[M3ANMACHINE]

I will be installing PFC Front DD Rotors along with PFC Pads to pair up with my Bimmerworld SS Lines and Mutul RBF600 Brake Fluid. Shoul be all i'll ever need on the track and street.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3ANMACHINE

I will be installing PFC Front DD Rotors along with PFC Pads to pair up with my Bimmerworld SS Lines and Mutul RBF600 Brake Fluid. Shoul be all i'll ever need on the track and street.

Ah denial is an early addiction stage.

[M3ANMACHINE]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Ah denial is an early addiction stage.

Lol. The OEM brakes are plenty on this car

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3ANMACHINE

Lol. The OEM brakes are plenty on this car

What about when they come out with reverse thrusters, you don't wanna be the dorky kid rockin oem.

[SumoJax]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I plan to track at least 6 times a year.

With the travel distance (at least 3 hours to the nearest track), and my busy home/work life, I can only dedicate so much time to track prep. Not having to fuss with the brakes would increase my willingness to do events. Ideally, I'd like to get the point where I can just slap on a set of track wheels, check pressures, and go, then wash the car and swap back to my street wheels when I get home. If I could do that, I'd be hitting the track as much as possible.

Sorry read the OP...................I was considering a BBK at one time but then I decided to just swap out stock pads for the Pagid RS19 with stock brakes. On the track great performance. Figure I'd save some $$$ for now until stock rotors are finished then go to BBK.

I don't bother switching them for street driving. They perform fine on the road but they can get a little noisy when not up to temperature.

[ailikesiliu]

stoptech street performance is what u need

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I plan to track at least 6 times a year.

With the travel distance (at least 3 hours to the nearest track), and my busy home/work life, I can only dedicate so much time to track prep. Not having to fuss with the brakes would increase my willingness to do events. Ideally, I'd like to get the point where I can just slap on a set of track wheels, check pressures, and go, then wash the car and swap back to my street wheels when I get home. If I could do that, I'd be hitting the track as much as possible.

No reason you can't if you can deal with the noise on the street. I do, but it is often really bad (brake setup in signature).

One suggestion is that you tote the track wheels, load them up and change over at the track. I also drive almost 3 hours. That can be a miserable ride if you've got noisy tires like NT-01s, or if you lose some wheel weights at the track and you drive home with the steering wheel jumping out of your hands... good times. And you could cord the track tires or get a flat, then you're waiting for a ride, etc.

Originally Posted by SumoJax

Sorry read the OP...................I was considering a BBK at one time but then I decided to just swap out stock pads for the Pagid RS19 with stock brakes. On the track great performance. Figure I'd save some $$$ for now until stock rotors are finished then go to BBK.

I don't bother switching them for street driving. They perform fine on the road but they can get a little noisy when not up to temperature.

Don't forget about the significant increase in pad life with BBK. When pads run around $300/axle that's a consideration. If you're a track regular the savings in pad costs can justify the BBK.

I can get ~10 days out of my RS29s with my front ST40 kit. Talked to someone last weekend who got 1 day out of RS19s on the stock front caliper.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Don't forget about the significant increase in pad life with BBK. When pads run around $300/axle that's a consideration. If you're a track regular the savings in pad costs can justify the BBK.

I can get ~10 days out of my RS29s with my front ST40 kit. Talked to someone last weekend who got 1 day out of RS19s on the stock front caliper.

true story!