Boss vs. M3 ZCP

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by adc

Hey, easy there with the personal references - it won't strengthen your argument at all. I was expecting a little better from you.

Personal references? I made none, but if my tone bothers you, revise your expectations.

Originally Posted by adc

I was pointing out that in the past, Ford has made automotive claims that were not truthful. To their best knowledge the Cobra was outputting XXX HP and independent measurements had proven otherwise. So yes, they can be widely off the mark.

Automotive claims? How many claims? Oh, the one you mention? OK, point taken. One claim, and of course they fixed it.

I used to have a poster in my office that said, amongst other things, "The race doesn't always go to the swift, nor the battle to the strong - but that's the way to bet."

The way to bet is that the production Boss will beat up on the M3, and in the very unlikely event that it doesn't, they'll fix it so it does - because they said it would.

Originally Posted by adc

On the other hand, the only argument that you came up with is that well, since Ford said it, then it must be true, right? I mean, were you there when they timed both cars? Were you perhaps the one driving them?

I thought I had made it plain, but perhaps not. Ford has just made a corporate claim, and they cannot, cannot be wrong in this, or the stench will be with them for many years. Perhaps decades.

There's a parallel with NIssan. Ghosn (Ghosn!) said the GT-R(s) that set those times at the 'Ring were stock. There's no way that could happen if the statement was untrue. Simply no way. No corporation could risk that type of a scandal.

Originally Posted by adc

Until we see independent verification of these claims, preferably with "customer" cars (i.e. non-manufacturer supplied) and with the same driver on the same day (and preferably with similar tires), it's all just marketing - not necessarily reality...

I'll be looking forward to it, of course, but forget about similar tires. The cars should run with their standard sneakers, and track sneakers is one reason the Ford will beat up on the bimmer.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

and with engine designers, and to combustion engineers, and to those who appreciate getting more with less, and to many race teams, and ...

Completely disagree, completely disagree, meaningless phrase, and completely agree where race rules dictate engine sizes.

Unless those engine designers are starting from scratch with a race motor purpose built to race regs governing cubic capacity, then they're more interested in the size and shape of the torque curve matching intended use, along with fuel usage goals, plus production costs. Likewise, combustion engineers are more interested in clean and efficient combustion with low emissions than they are with power per liter.

Just what in the hell is more with less? The LS3 pushrod Chevy is more with less compared to the bimmer V8. More power, way more torque, slightly less weight, slightly more compact, and better bsfc numbers.

Oh yeah. And way low power per liter numbers.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by 1cleanm3

look at you busting your balls like your a ford salesman im proud of you

I'm actually busting other people's balls, given the predictable reactions - such as yours.

Originally Posted by 1cleanm3

Compare the e92 m3 to a ford mustang boss and ill still take the m3 anyday because its a complete package

compare a 911tt to a gtr and ill still take the 911 anyday because its a complete package, hell ill take a reg 911 over a gtr.

I completely concur. However, this thread is supposed to be about the Boss 302 outperforming the M3 - or not. I just baited the faithful by using terminology such as "beat like a rented mule", which of course I firmly believe for the reasons stated (and stated, and stated) ad nauseum.

If I had said "beat like a redheaded stepchild", would folks have been calmer?

[adc]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Personal references? I made none, but if my tone bothers you, revise your expectations.

I will certainly revise my expectation of courteous responses, this being the internet. It only bothers me to the extent that I have to refrain myself from responding in kind.

The way to bet is that the production Boss will beat up on the M3, and in the very unlikely event that it doesn't, they'll fix it so it does - because they said it would.(...) I thought I had made it plain, but perhaps not. Ford has just made a corporate claim, and they cannot, cannot be wrong in this, or the stench will be with them for many years. Perhaps decades.

Your strong confidence in Ford's wisdom brings a tear to my eye.

Nobody plans for failure - it just happens.


Isn't it best to wait until the victory to congratulate the victor?

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Scoobe

Yeah was talking about the 3v/4v variety. With the latest 3v conversion, I think by next year there wont be anymore SOHC period? I think thats confirmed now with the death of the 4.6L even in trucks. Either way, pushrods have been gone for a long time.

The 6.2L in the new F150 is a 2 valve SOHC.

[MKParris]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

You know the sad thing is the Mustang will probably have less deprecition than the M3 though as a percentage. I can assure you a limited run of just 500 Boss's is going to make it an instant collectible. I remember when Ford introduced the 1993 Mustang Cobra R and the 1995 Mustang Cobra R hardly any of them made it to the track as investors snapped them up and stored them away.

Dave

there will be more than 500

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by adc

I will certainly revise my expectation of courteous responses, this being the internet. It only bothers me to the extent that I have to refrain myself from responding in kind.

Your choice. I'm comfy either way.

Originally Posted by adc

Your strong confidence in Ford's wisdom brings a tear to my eye.

Nobody plans for failure - it just happens.

Isn't it best to wait until the victory to congratulate the victor?

Wisdom? Not an issue here.

Could Ford fail here? Of course - but that's not the way to bet.

I haven't congratulated anyone, and as I've already mentioned in this string, I don't give a damn either way. It's just that the OP asked, and I answered - with obvious great confidence.

The street M3 is (and should be) a sitting duck here compared to a street legal race car built along the lines of the ACR Viper. Yeah, you can drive either the Boss or the ACR Viper on the street, but it won't be fun.

A better contest would be the Boss Ford against the hot-damn race-built M3 GTS not sold here. That would be a more fair (and fun) comparison. My money would be on the GTS, although it might be fairly close, based on the disappointing 'Ring time for that car.

If you're a constant reader, you know that I have praised the M3 highly (most recently referring to it as "The Mongoose"), but I have zero religion about the car or the manufacturer, or in fact any manufacturer. I'm an extremely promiscuous badge whore, in fact.

As mentioned, Ford has already beaten up on the M3 in their chosen venue, or they would not have made their target goal public. Thus, my confidence in the outcome.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard anything about the "new" Porsche Turbo with PDK staying with the GT-R at the 'Ring yet, much less the previous one. Am I wrong?

Until Porsche equips one with those sticky Cup tires, you probably won't. FWIW, the GT3RS and (obviously) GT2RS have posted better ring times than the GT-R.

[Advskier]

Ford might have beaten up on BMW in their chosen venue, but I doubt many M3 buyers will be swayed. With a few exceptions (here), completely different markets.
Likewise, if the Mustang beat up on the M3, I am sure Ford could just as easily have targeted some Porsche models, but I don't see many potential Porsche buyers choosing a Mustang instead.

I think it's great that Ford is pushing the envelope with their new cars, and hopefully over time they will build a product that buyers do seriously consider over BMW. But it's going to take a lot more than a pretty specialized car, in a specialized environment to do so.

[graider]

I agree totally. here is a video to back up with bruce just said. keep in mind this is the 997.2 turbo pdk. which means it is 2 years newer than the gtr, awd, more hp/tq, pdk, and 400lbs lighter. so this is apple vs apple with all the disadvantage goes to the nissan. but the gtr still outlap the turbo in this video under the hand of a third party mag reviewer.

the excuse of ringer, etc is just lame these days especially many reviews have confirmed the gtr is faster on the track. i remembered car and drive review had the gtr 5 seconds faster around a 2 miles track over the z06 and 997.1 turbo. is that a ringer too?

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I can't believe the complete nonsense you've come up with here.

Nissan said their benchmark was the then-current Porsche Turbo at the 'Ring, and they beat up on the Porsche. Of course, they had already beaten up on the Porsche before the press releases, or there wouldn't have been any press releases.

First you put down the Porsche ("designed many years ago"), and then you call it a benchmark. Hard to have it both ways...

I personally believe it was a benchmark at the time Nissan beat up on it, and of course they aimed at a benchmark for hype! You type that as if you have a problem with it. Why?

Ringer?

Right. I bet you think all the succeeding runs have been with ringers as well. You might want to look at online GT-R runs. Suzuki is driving with NAFOD, for sure. Much more so than Horst, for example. In my opinion, Horst is supposed to drive hard, perhaps to the 90-95% level or so, but not with NAFOD, please. Big difference.

Oh, NAFOD? That's a Navy fighter pilot acronym for "no apparent fear of death".

By the way, "subsequent results" have been exceedingly kind to the Nissan, I think, down to the current 7:26.7 time, which is about where Nissan was aiming before the car first came out. (They said "under 7:30" was the goal back then, if memory serves.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard anything about the "new" Porsche Turbo with PDK staying with the GT-R at the 'Ring yet, much less the previous one. Am I wrong?

Amazingly enough, I concur with your last sentence. None of the four cars are actually competitors, in my opinion, magazine hype aside.

[330CIZHP]

Shortly, the Porsche 911 Turbo S will be getting lapped around Nurburgring by AutoBild (full 20.8 KM version of the track rather than the typical shorter 20.6 km version) in a supercomparo part 2.

In part 1, Lexus LFA demolished all the cars it was compared to in the first part including Nissan GTR, LP570-4 Superleggera, Weismann. Sascha Bert (track test driver) said "LFA was built to be raced around Nurburgring".

The LP570-4 was the second fastest and LFA was faster by 2 seconds than the LP570-4 superleggera despite the superleggera being a hardcore stripped down race track car with super-slick Pirelli Corsa tires. The Nissan GTR was also wearing Dunlop DSST S600 extreme performance tires (used only in the dry).

Part 2 of the comparo will be and it will be clear where the Turbo S with PDK is relative to the Nissan GTR:

Ferrari 458 Italia
SLS AMG
Porsche 911 Turbo S

Originally Posted by graider

I agree totally. here is a video to back up with bruce just said. keep in mind this is the 997.2 turbo pdk. which means it is 2 years newer than the gtr, awd, more hp/tq, pdk, and 400lbs lighter. so this is apple vs apple with all the disadvantage goes to the nissan. but the gtr still outlap the turbo in this video under the hand of a third party mag reviewer.

the excuse of ringer, etc is just lame these days especially many reviews have confirmed the gtr is faster on the track. i remembered car and drive review had the gtr 5 seconds faster around a 2 miles track over the z06 and 997.1 turbo. is that a ringer too?

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Part 2 of the comparo will be and it will be clear where the Turbo S with PDK is relative to the Nissan GTR:

Ferrari 458 Italia
SLS AMG
Porsche 911 Turbo S

Looking forward to seeing the results of that comparison. Would also be cool to have a 911GT2 RS in the mix as it would still be $200K cheaper than the LFA.

[330CIZHP]

GT2 RS is much more similar to the LP570-4 Superleggera. Stripped down and hardcore track-focused only while LFA has a lot of luxury weight to carry as well.

Anyway, LFA price is $375,000 with everything and the GT2 RS base starting price is $250,000.

Originally Posted by Garissimo

Looking forward to seeing the results of that comparison. Would also be cool to have a 911GT2 RS in the mix as it would still be $200K cheaper than the LFA.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Scoobe

You mean like being a lighter motor in weight, more torque, a dyno'd more whp, and better gas mileage?

Careful to underestimate the 5.0L, its a remarkable engine. Given the choice of that 5.0 or this 4.0, as much as I love the M3 motor, I'd not hesitate to have th 5.0L in my M3, and especially the Boss 302 motor which is confirmed to have a 7500rpm redline. Not too shabby for a torquey American V8. And honestly, Ford V8's are the only American made performance V8's not sporting push rods. They are advanced engines and have never been far behind Europe. Ford hasn't made a pushrod V8 since 1996. All are DOHC, variable timing, multi-port FI.

And that doesn't even touch on the fact that modding mustangs is rediculously cheaper than M3's. Ford will have available late this year a supercharger kit that preserves the warranty and rumored to have 550+hp output.

You appear to be confusing generalities vs. specifics. My statement was one of generalities I never made any statements about which particular engine was a better engine or why.

[Genericuser1]

Talk about off topic, Ferrari?

The Boss 302 will be competitive performance-wise with the M3, probably surpassing it but then they have had 4 years to do so and are using a larger displacement motor. What I find impressive is they will match or beat the M3 for $20k less. That is an achievement and can only be better for the automotive industry. The M5 and E63 pushed Cadillac to make the new CTS-V and in turn I’m sure the new CTS-V will insure the next M5 will be an even better performer.

Competition regardless of the brand is a good thing for the consumer.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Completely disagree, completely disagree, meaningless phrase, and completely agree where race rules dictate engine sizes.

Unless those engine designers are starting from scratch with a race motor purpose built to race regs governing cubic capacity, then they're more interested in the size and shape of the torque curve matching intended use, along with fuel usage goals, plus production costs. Likewise, combustion engineers are more interested in clean and efficient combustion with low emissions than they are with power per liter.

Just what in the hell is more with less? The LS3 pushrod Chevy is more with less compared to the bimmer V8. More power, way more torque, slightly less weight, slightly more compact, and better bsfc numbers.

Oh yeah. And way low power per liter numbers.

Well then you are contradicting yourself. In the past you have admitted that achieving a high specific output is both technically challenging and requires in general a more sophisticated and highly engineered engine than a larger displacement, lower redline, higher torque type of engine. We obviously agree (and have agreed) that on the streets it is largely irrelevant. The "character" of each type of design is quite different as well with the high specific output types typically offering more thrills and better sounds (a subjective advantage for sure).

There are ways in which each basic design achieves more with less and each type of design excels in different categories. The S65 achieves an unheard of flat and wide torque band and it's achievement of that is based on its high redline and athletic breathing systems, typically a natural outcome that goes hand in hand with a high specific output design. You can't praise this key feature of this engine (as you have repeatedly) yet completely discount its basic type (i.e. high specific output).

No matter which metrics you want to use high specific output engines are always special in many ways. Similarly both American pushrod performance V8s and Ford OHC V8s offer their own set of advantages.

[008]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

You know the sad thing is the Mustang will probably have less deprecition than the M3 though as a percentage. I can assure you a limited run of just 500 Boss's is going to make it an instant collectible. I remember when Ford introduced the 1993 Mustang Cobra R and the 1995 Mustang Cobra R hardly any of them made it to the track as investors snapped them up and stored them away.

Dave

I had a 95 Cobra R. It made it the track (prepped for American Sedan) but was unfortunately totalled on the street going from my warehouse to my house by a woman who ran a red light with no insurance.

[graider]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

Looking forward to seeing the results of that comparison. Would also be cool to have a 911GT2 RS in the mix as it would still be $200K cheaper than the LFA.

i still buy the lfa over the gt2 rs even it is 200k more expensive.

but i'm pretty sure the gt2 rs is one of the fastest car out there. up there with the viper arc, etc....since it is pretty much a track car.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Well then you are contradicting yourself. In the past you have admitted that achieving a high specific output is both technically challenging and requires in general a more sophisticated and highly engineered engine than a larger displacement, lower redline, higher torque type of engine. We obviously agree (and have agreed) that on the streets it is largely irrelevant. The "character" of each type of design is quite different as well with the high specific output types typically offering more thrills and better sounds (a subjective advantage for sure).

There are ways in which each basic design achieves more with less and each type of design excels in different categories. The S65 achieves an unheard of flat and wide torque band and it's achievement of that is based on its high redline and athletic breathing systems, typically a natural outcome that goes hand in hand with a high specific output design. You can't praise this key feature of this engine (as you have repeatedly) yet completely discount its basic type (i.e. high specific output).

No matter which metrics you want to use high specific output engines are always special in many ways. Similarly both American pushrod performance V8s and Ford OHC V8s offer their own set of advantages.

Not sure what the point of your verbiage actually was, but the vast majority of engineering talent devoted to engine design is now concentrated on the extremely difficult areas of efficiency and low emissions. In my opinion, these are the challenges that today's best and brightest are aimed at.

High specific output is available pretty much everywhere in the automotive spectrum nowadays, and is frankly ho hum in terms of design challenges compared to what I've mentioned.

At the moment, the M3 is far from the highest when it comes to power per liter, and so what. It's a terrific engine.

If BMW was bound and determined to enhance the current power per liter numbers, they could only do so by compromising the low end even more than it is now compared to the competition.

Theoreticians care about power per liter. The rest of us just want to go fast.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by graider

i still buy the lfa over the gt2 rs even it is 200k more expensive.

As long as I kept my eyes closed and listened to the LFA's exhaust note, I would be happy. Problem is that sooner or later, I'd have to open my eye and that would put a quick end to the love affair. So it'd be the 911GT2 RS for me.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by MKParris

there will be more than 500

Sorry meant the Laguna Seca versions...only 500 will be made.

Dave

[graider]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

As long as I kept my eyes closed and listened to the LFA's exhaust note, I would be happy. Problem is that sooner or later, I'd have to open my eye and that would put a quick end to the love affair. So it'd be the 911GT2 RS for me.

problem is the gt2 rs at 270k still looks like a 911 and there are thousands of them, everywhere.

and it sounds like a vacuum cleaner.