For those of us who dont want ZTP, please help!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I think we have heard that the suspension in non EDC equipped cars is not nearly as harsh as is it in sport mode in EDC equipped cars.

Really, swamp? Not that I care how the car feels, I just care how well it handles. And not that I am saying that you were saying different, either. But I think the E92 M3 without EDC will probably feel and handle about like the E46. That's pretty harsh. If we are talking about a general scale where, say, a Buick is 1 and a go-cart is a 10, I'd give it a 7 at least. I wonder where the E92 M3 in Sport mode will fall in there? And, I wonder if the handling will differ greatly between the two.

Now, one thing we do know is that, on a track anyway, the car is faster in Normal than in Sport. Or, at least on some tracks it will be.

Edit: I should add that, the nice thing about all this is you can just order EDC if you want it. No need to order the whole ZTP package.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

If I read correctly, you are implying that MDrive is available without iDrive in Germany. That is not the case.

Go to the bmw.de configurator and try it for yourself. You will see that selecting M Drive Requires Addition of "Business Navigation System"

-Adam

Yeah, I am almost certain now that, no matter where you buy your car, you need a screen to be able to adjust all the M stuff. The best you get without the screen is EDC settings (if EDC is equipped), DSC ON/OFF, and Normal or Sport throttle. You cannot adjust steering, select MDM, or select "Sport Plus" throttle without a screen.

Now, whether the non-MDrive cars lack specific hardware to cause this to be the case, or whether it is merely software - we don't know. Obviously there is no steering button at all. But the other two - the DSC and throttle - could in theory be enabled in a non-MDrive car via, for example, a push-and-hold of their respective buttons instead of a push. This is pure conjecture on my part, but I am sure tuners will dig into all of this and see if there is any "hidden features" to be unlocked.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Really, swamp? Not that I care how the car feels, I just care how well it handles. And not that I am saying that you were saying different, either. But I think the E92 M3 without EDC will probably feel and handle about like the E46. That's pretty harsh. If we are talking about a general scale where, say, a Buick is 1 and a go-cart is a 10,

I used to think like this, then I went to far and found there are limits to how much comfort I would trade off for handling. Its why I have seperate track and DD cars now. I also got tired of having to explain to my dates why the car was so loud and bumpy.

In theory EDC should give you a reasonably good compromise that you can slightly adjust on demand.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by enigma

I used to think like this, then I went to far and found there are limits to how much comfort I would trade off for handling. Its why I have seperate track and DD cars now. I also got tired of having to explain to my dates why the car was so loud and bumpy.

In theory EDC should give you a reasonably good compromise that you can slightly adjust on demand.

What I'm curious about is how EDC will affect those who mod (...or plan to mod) their suspensions. Will an aftermarket suspension negate EDC? I'm assuming it will, so I would assume that such a thing would make EDC useless for those with modification plans.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by enigma

I used to think like this, then I went to far and found there are limits to how much comfort I would trade off for handling. Its why I have seperate track and DD cars now. I also got tired of having to explain to my dates why the car was so loud and bumpy.

In theory EDC should give you a reasonably good compromise that you can slightly adjust on demand.

2d that.

EDC is very effective in "normal" active mode while maintaining good ride comfort over a variety of surfaces, and in fact is better than "sport" mode on the Nordschleife. My wife hates to ride in my E46 M3 because of the harshness of the suspension. The E92 is much more comfortable in "comfort" and even "normal" modes, and in "sport" mode about the same as the E46 M3.

[swamp2]

From what I have read and watched in reviews Sport mode is quite harsh/stiff on the E92 M3. I suspect it will be more harsh than both a non EDC M3 as well as the E46 M3. Why would you not try to completely envelope the comfort/stiffness of non EDC cars with EDC by offering a less sporty/more comfortable mode as well as a more sporty/less comfortable mode? Again from what we have heard most do not even consider Sport mode except on perfectly smooth surfaces due to it just being too harsh. It all sounds quite rosy to me, EDC is not to be missed.

[ilron]

Originally Posted by danielbreese

Guys,

Thanks for the replies and thank you

ilron and mkoesel for going into the specifics of the feeling of the different settings.

Just thinking out loud: In order to buy an M3 without ZTP, the car should have:

1 the steering set at the heaviest setting-- an unknown right now
2 The non EDC set at sport (or maybe normal)-- an unknown right now
3 The DSC when ON should be NO more intrusive than the E46 M3 DSC-- ILRON- Is that your impression?
4 The "sport" setting on the throttle should be at least as quick as the E46. I really like the hair trigger response of my E46 and I wonder if I will be missing something without the Sport plus-- ILRON?

I really dont to buy the "stripper" M3 only to find out later that I didnt go the extra yard to get the sportiest version. So unless all the above are true, I may have to suck it up and get ZTP.

Thanks,

Dan

1. - Trust me, the Normal mode is way to light.
2. - I think the stock nonEDC suspension will be between Normal and Sport, I have nothing to back up this thought besides my gut feeling...
3. - I do not have enough experience with the E46 M3 DSC to give a fair comparsion, but the E92 M3 DSC is not intrusive during daily driving, however, on Nürburgring there was no doubt that I prefered the M-Drive Mode.
4. - Again, not enough experience with the E46 M3. As expected the difference between Normal and Sport is much bigger than Sport and Sport Plus. I will be able to give you better comments on the difference between Sport and Sport Plus after the 2K km oilchange.

[NavM]

Originally Posted by enigma

It was not. The US did not get a mid life HP upgrade.

The US spec E36's displacement was bumped from 3.0 L to 3.2 L starting with 1997 models (could have been 1996). But you're right, it didn't get any bump in hp but the torque went up from a max of 225 lb/ft to 236 lb/ft with a more useful torque curve.

[NavM]

When you are paying this much money, assuming a base price between 55K to 60K range, you might as well get most of the goodies. It will help with the resale. The market for "lighly" optioned M3's is mostly limited to the "purists" looking for a track car. While this does not apply to every potential buyer, most who want to purchase a used M3 will be looking for well optioned M3.

If the only way to afford such an expensive car is through eliminating seemingly "unnecessary" options, then this may not be the right car to purchase for that individual. Just a perspective and not meant to offend anyone.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by NavM3

When you are paying this much money, assuming a base price between 55K to 60K range, you might as well get most of the goodies. It will help with the resale. The market for "lighly" optioned M3's is mostly limited to the "purists" looking for a track car. While this does not apply to every potential buyer, most who want to purchase a used M3 will be looking for well optioned M3.

You can always get rid of a M3, or any other car, at a fair price regardless of how it's optioned as long as you're not pressed for cash and are not in a hurry to sell. The packages that costs thousands of dollars initially tend to depreciate more than the base MSRP depreciation--relatively speaking--if you consider bluebook values. Also, if you are trading it, dealers won't care as long as you know how to negotiate and can point at bluebook values and so on...The mileage and the overall condition of the car are the real determining factors.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by lucid

You can always get rid of a M3, or any other car, at a fair price regardless of how it's optioned as long as you're not pressed for cash and are not in a hurry to sell. The packages that costs thousands of dollars initially tend to depreciate more than the base MSRP depreciation--relatively speaking--if you consider bluebook values. Also, if you are trading it, dealers won't care as long as you know how to negotiate and can point at bluebook values and so on...The mileage and the overall condition of the car are the real determining factors.

+2

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by NavM3

If the only way to afford such an expensive car is through eliminating seemingly "unnecessary" options, then this may not be the right car to purchase for that individual. Just a perspective and not meant to offend anyone.

What is necessary to you may not be for the next person, especially when modding is added to the equation. Just because a person is buying an expensive car doesn't mean that such a purchase needs to be further validated by checking every option on the list. People have different needs, hence why such things are options.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by NavM3

If the only way to afford such an expensive car is through eliminating seemingly "unnecessary" options, then this may not be the right car to purchase for that individual. Just a perspective and not meant to offend anyone.

I trust you are replacing your absolutely fully loaded E46 M3 with an absolutely fully loaded E92 M3?

Also, why not buy the convertible? After all, its got more functionality than the coupe. Or maybe you don't like the extra weight? Well sure ok, but do you think all those extra options on an M3 are completely weightless?

BTW, how do you like the SMG on your E46? Are you thinking of waiting for M-DCT?

[NavM]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I trust you are replacing your absolutely fully loaded E46 M3 with an absolutely fully loaded E92 M3?

Also, why not buy the convertible? After all, its got more functionality than the coupe. Or maybe you don't like the extra weight? Well sure ok, but do you think all those extra options on an M3 are completely weightless?

BTW, how do you like the SMG on your E46? Are you thinking of waiting for M-DCT?

Take it easy buddy. It's actually a coupe with 6MT, premium, xenon and heated seats.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by NavM3

Take it easy buddy. It's actually a coupe with 6MT, premium, xenon and heated seats.

Easy? Just trying to keep the discussion going?

But I will admit that I am now curious why you don't have SMG? Couldn't you afford it?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Easy? Just trying to keep the discussion going?

But I will admit that I am now curious why you don't have SMG? Couldn't you afford it?

Hmmm, maybe he shouldn't have purchased such a car since he didn't get all of the goodies.

[NavM]

Guys, I think you misunderstood me. What I said may have come across the wrong way. Again, it wasn't meant to offend anyone. If a person does not want to have certain options just because they don't want to or because they want to mod the car, then that is fine. As you pointed out, that's why they are options.

My point is that it is a financial risk to buy a car if one can not truely afford it and the only way to get it is to eliminate options that they would otherwise want to have.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by NavM3

My point is that it is a financial risk to buy a car if one can not truely afford it and the only way to get it is to eliminate options that they would otherwise want to have.

That's fine, but what does this have to do with the current thread topic? No one is talking about whether they can afford the car or not. By bringing such things up, all you are doing is asking for sharp criticism. You may not intend to offend anyone, but when you start talking about money totally out of the blue, you definitely come off as a 'holier than thou' type. You are bound to get pushback in that case. Just my 2 cents though.

[danielbreese]

Thanks again guys. ilron and Swamp2- thanks for the specifics.

Ilron, I hope the non ZTP car comes as you describe (heavy steering, non EDC between normal and sport, not too much diff between sport and sport plus, and unobtrusive regular DSC)! If that's the case I can do with out all the other stuff on ZTP-- fingers crossed!

Dan

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

If I read correctly, you are implying that MDrive is available without iDrive in Germany. That is not the case.

Go to the bmw.de configurator and try it for yourself. You will see that selecting M Drive Requires Addition of "Business Navigation System"

-Adam

Mine was a general rant about packages. Apart from that, yes, I want to have MDrive without Navigation, and from your post it sounds like that issue exists in Germany as well. Regardless, generally speaking, the German options list is orders of magnitude more customizable.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by GregMM

Ok...should not have said "never" They did it with the E36 but they added some new tech and increased displacement a little to get the E36 to 321hp. Not quite like adding 2 more cylinders though, or a turbo or many of the other things hoped for.

I stand corrected though

The E30 got bumped from 2.3L to 2.5L (not sure if the 2.5L was sold in the US), and and as you said, the E36 got bumped from 3.0L to 3.2L. Yes, BMW has not messed with its M engines significantly for a given platform. I don't think we will see FI in this cycle. Actually, one of the top execs said that in an interview as well. The reported claim is that they will focus on reducing weight with the CSL next. Maybe, in a couple of years, they might increase displacement slightly depending on what the competition is doing.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by danielbreese

Thanks again guys. ilron and Swamp2- thanks for the specifics.

Ilron, I hope the non ZTP car comes as you describe (heavy steering, non EDC between normal and sport, not too much diff between sport and sport plus, and unobtrusive regular DSC)! If that's the case I can do with out all the other stuff on ZTP-- fingers crossed!

Dan

The DSC Off will definitely be unobtrusive. Moreso than the MDM mode, in fact.

However, unless I am misinterpreting something (and I don't think I am), I believe you are quite out of luck with the steering. See Gregs post here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...3&postcount=69

With the MDrive menu option, a second and even more sportsoriented characteristic curve can be activated (see the chapter on MDrive).

However, again (and I do apologize for sounding like a broken record) it is not clear if this is due to lack of hardware or only software. If the latter, there is at least some hope it can be enabled.

So, for some comparison:

E9X 335i: 16:1
E46 M3: 15.4:1 *
E46 M3 CS: 14.5:1 *
E9X M3: 12.5:1

* Not clear (to me at least) whether this is fixed or an average variable ratio like it is on the E9X cars.

Also, I am not sure I understand how the "characteristic curve" of the "MS660's Servotronic valve" relates to the weight of the steering. My limited understanding make's me guess it is the speed, not the weight, that will be effected. However, I would love to here from someone who knows the details and can explain them.