|
|
08-24-2012, 01:17 PM | #89 |
Colonel
99
Rep 2,000
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 01:23 PM | #90 | |
Second Lieutenant
5
Rep 273
Posts |
Quote:
Let's see if I can catch another one.
__________________
2015 Porsche 911 C2S | 2019 BMW X5 50i | 2020 Land Rover Discovery
2007 Ducati Monster S4RS | 2016 BMW RNineT | 2018 Aprilia RSV4 | 2019 Speed Triple RS |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 01:28 PM | #91 | ||||||||
Lieutenant General
609
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
We should dive a bit deeper for this specific case as to what "hand" means and what advantages it brings.
What is the human part of this process exactly? Matching a piston to a bore? Wow that is really the peak of human ingenuity. The requirement for the human in the loop here is deep and compelling... What is the human doing that is superior to what existing equipment can do? Again, it appears that there is some ongoing glorification of the human aspect of this based on hot-rodding, blue printing, race engines or repair/rebuild. The necessity of hand building in all of those cases is clear. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I enthusiastically agree with the last statement. The machines are all just as clever, useful an accurate as their brilliant designers, engineers, programmers and maintenance folks. Quote:
Ultimately, as many similar discussions go, I think the only way to settle this would be to have candid access to BOTH a design engineer responsible for setting the piston-cylinder clearance specification as well as the corresponding manufacturing engineer responsible for engine assembly and meeting that requirement. Of course we would need to know from these guys working at a large company working on a typical large volume engine.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | Last edited by swamp2; 08-24-2012 at 01:36 PM.. |
||||||||
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 02:05 PM | #92 | |
Lieutenant
46
Rep 516
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
Current Stable: 6 Drivers + 5 Projects
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 02:11 PM | #93 | |
Lieutenant
46
Rep 516
Posts |
Quote:
Of course yes the signature thing is probably a joke and I remember my Ford GT had one on the valve covers and I always envisioned some big guy with a huge beard wrenching my engine together and sipping down a cold Budweiser. I say this because one day, I had the dashboard out to do a mod and a beer bottle cap fell out of the car. I dont drink Bud, and no idea how it got there as I was the first owner lol.
__________________
Current Stable: 6 Drivers + 5 Projects
Last edited by Optherion; 08-24-2012 at 02:17 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 02:28 PM | #94 |
Convicted Felon
733
Rep 2,180
Posts |
Now imagine the uproar in this forum if the M3 motor were hand built and the AMG motor was machine built, and the OP called out the M3 motor like he did the AMG motor. There would be a fanbois going nuts saying stuff like, "The M guys have passion", "They give the M its soul", "hand built because BMW cares", "real race engines are hand built" Unbelievable.
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 02:56 PM | #96 | |
Lieutenant General
609
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 04:07 PM | #97 | |
Brigadier General
1913
Rep 4,171
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 06:47 PM | #98 |
Colonel
270
Rep 2,663
Posts
Drives: Goggomobil
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kangaroo land
|
I am no engineer and don't have the faintest idea when it comes to engines and its intricacies. But looking at the video, the S65 engine, the pistons are hand assembled and then the rest of the assembly is hand torqued and individually measured and entered into the computer so in the future when something drastic happens with the particular engine they can refer the assembly process.
I don't see an automated process to build the S65 engine accept for may be casting the blocks and machining the cylinder heads and pistons amongst other things. Putting the engine together is done by human just by watching that video. Now how is this different to AMG's claim? But BMW doesn't claim it is hand building the engine. It's a pure marketing gimmick as far as I am concerned. Just noting my point here.
__________________
F86 X6///
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 06:57 PM | #99 |
Major
68
Rep 1,359
Posts |
Me too. BTW, I brought some to go with the
__________________
2014 E63 AMG-S
2012 C63 AMG (P31) - gone 2011 E90 M3 FBO - gone |
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 09:08 PM | #101 |
Major General
4969
Rep 6,854
Posts |
Can someone enlighten me as to the "glorious sound" of the c63? Granted my opinion is only reached through YouTube videos but it doesnt sound all that great to me. Just sounds like any other v8. Am I way off base?
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 09:34 PM | #102 |
Convicted Felon
733
Rep 2,180
Posts |
You have to hear it in person to appreciate it. Before I got my M3, I thought it didnt sound that good according to the videos, until I bought one and heard it live. I loved the way it sound.
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 09:37 PM | #103 | |
Major General
1901
Rep 5,678
Posts |
Quote:
But, like everything else in life, everyone will have a different preference to sound. Sound is one thing that sets AMG apart IMO.
__________________
2020 X3 M40i | Black | Current DD
2020 C8 Corvette | Z51 | Torch Red ... built and waiting for delivery 2016 M2 | Long Beach Blue | 6MT 2015 M4 | Austin Yellow | DCT 2012 MB C63AMG | 2011 E92 M3 | 2010 E92 M3 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 10:03 PM | #104 | |
Brigadier General
1913
Rep 4,171
Posts |
Quote:
I loved the exhaust note on my C63. Startup was fantastic every morning. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-24-2012, 11:35 PM | #105 | |
Grease Monkey
292
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
The Video in Question was of pre-production S65 Engines (some of the first ever built). Production S65's are indeed assembly line built since the hand building that the video shows could not come close to keeping up with the volume required. @ Swamp: I can't disagree with anything you have said above in reply to my post, as usual you have your facts in order. Like you mentioned, cost is key in this equation and it costs a lot to hand assemble engines. As for machines making perfect parts time after time, you are almost correct, but many times the first parts from a batch will be better than the last parts out of a batch simply because cutter heads and other parts wear and that is where your variance comes from. At some point a machine needs to be re-calibrated to make up for this wear. A machine is only as good as the preventative maintenance program of the company that owns it, and since cash is king, preventative maintenance is getting cut back everywhere. When a machine has to go down for maintenance, production is affected and so is profit. However, with proper maintenance and adequate QC machines are definitely able to make virtually exact parts one after the other, the maintenance and QC is the variable and like I said above that is up to the company. (This reminds me of a story of a friend of mine who worked at the GM assembly line in Oshawa, Ontario........ He told me that by the end of the production run of the Eighth generation Chevrolet Impala, the dies used to stamp the body panels were so worn that the rear windows barely even fitted the body any more and GM refused to spend the money to replace them since the car was going out of production soon. The solution was to use extra urethane to take up the added gap between the window and body and stick the molding over top of it. I know we are not talking about GM here, but where ever cash is king sometimes corners are cut, no manufacturer shy of Bugatti or Rolls Royce are free of this type of thing) Anyhow I can ramble on and on, but in the end I think we are both right, machines are simply amazing at mass production of identical parts, so much so that no human could ever hope to even come close to matching the volume yet keeping tolerances so close. At the same time a hand built engine is almost always going to have tolerances that that are tighter than the one produced by machines simply because there is more time and hands on involvement to allow this. One thing that should be noted though, no automobile assembly line that I have ever seen has been able to totally eliminate people from the equation, there are always some humans in there! Finally, I don't know of a machine made that can feel a grinding or drag, or hear a particular noise like a trained craftsman can. There are some things that machines just don't have and that is the human touch. If AMG engines are hand assembled like they claim, I think there is at least some value in that. They may not necessarily be better because of it, but as an engine builder myself I feel a connection to the fact that another person from my craft put it together with his hands even if it was from parts largely made by an automated machine with many high tech tools.
__________________
Last edited by BMRLVR; 08-25-2012 at 01:16 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-25-2012, 04:40 AM | #106 | |||||
Lieutenant General
609
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Good post. Let's continue.
Quote:
Quote:
[QUOTE=BMRLVR;12565885]Anyhow I can ramble on and on, but in the end I think we are both right, machines are simply amazing at mass production of identical parts, so much so that no human could ever hope to even come close to matching the volume yet keeping tolerances so close. At the same time a hand built engine is almost always going to have tolerances that that are tighter than the one produced by machines simply because there is more time and hands on involvement to allow this. [quote] Still don't fully agree with this. It is a but subtle. There are certainly combinations of team, process and equipment which are better than others combination of team process and equipment. One might compare a really well funded OEM engine production team (company) like BMW Porsche or even Ferrari (the latter is probably not the best example because of low volume they will necessarily have a higher percentage of human involvement) with a somewhat crude back yard team of buddies building big block Chevy drag engines for their team. They latter may fully blueprint and may do everything by hand but their limitations in terms of their sourcing, machining and inspection accuracy will not allow them to match the OEM who is perhaps 99% automated. Just because one complete team takes one small step (or even an entire process) by hand does not immediately let you conclude they have actually improved something over another teams outcome. The devil is in the details. Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps an interesting and loosely related topic would be a short list of the the very common things that humans are much better at than machines... Quote:
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|||||
Appreciate
0
|
08-25-2012, 05:17 AM | #107 |
Lieutenant General
609
Rep 10,407
Posts |
A quick check into the annual sales volume of Mercedes AMG indicates a mere 20,000 vehicles in all of 2011. AMG is gunning for about 30k this year. That means the engines are being cranked out at only (very roughly) 100 engines/day. This volume is significantly lower than my initial gut feeling which was driven by the understanding that there is a great deal of engine commonality among many different AMG vehicles. Heck the E46 M3 sold at about 15,000 vehicles per year. This volume is certainly quite small compared to the 380,000 or so 3ers BMW sold in 2011. There certainly are cars that sell in much higher volumes than the BMW 3er, that was just another reference point.
Based on this relatively low volume I do expect a significant amount of engine (and other) hand assembly. That being said I'll stick firmly to my primary point that any such hand operations are done purely from a cost perspective. That is of course assuming I understand the AMG engine situation correctly in that they are entirely specific to the AMG cars and are not used in the non AMG Mercedes line.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
Appreciate
0
|
08-25-2012, 07:28 AM | #108 |
Colonel
830
Rep 2,352
Posts
Drives: 16' BMW i8
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The REAL Jersey Shore
iTrader: (1)
Garage List 2001 BMW M3 E46 CON ... [9.50]
2016 BMW i8 [10.00] 2003 JEEP GRAND CHE ... [0.00] 2000 540i SPORT E39 [10.00] 2007 TOYOTA TACOMA ... [0.00] |
Just so you guys know, there was or still is a woman who assembles engines in the AMG plant so technically, the "One Man, One Engine" slogan isn't politcally correct.
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-25-2012, 09:43 AM | #109 | |
Grease Monkey
292
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
Your knowledge of mechanized/automated assembly is obviously much greater than mine and I can't intelligently rebut against many of the points you make since I simply don't have the knowledge. One thing I do have knowledge of is engine assembly, and I can safely tell you that I have seen many mass produced engines from automated assembly lines that have issues from either improper clearances, defective parts or incorrect assembly (gaskets or o-rings left out). I have no doubt that machines are able to make perfect engines provided that every bore, part, fastener, etc. are of perfect dimension and free of defects, however at extremely high volumes I don't think manufacturers are inspecting every part for quality or dimension, they are probably only inspecting every 100th or 1000th part. This less than 100% QC is the main reason for recalls, and manufacturers warranties, to deal with the inevitable problems that get past the machines. I am still confident that an engine that is hand assembled by a craftsman who is verifying every measurement with a hands on nature is going to be built tighter compared to an engine that is built by a machine where maybe every 100th engine is pulled from the production and inspected. I may be wrong on this but this is my feeling. I also think that if BMW were hand assembling the S54 and S65 blocks that they wouldn't have had the main bearing issues that seem to be cropping up because they would have had the oil clearance adjusted to the proper specs instead of trusting in mass produced parts that may be off 0.0005" here and 0.00025" there causing issues down the road! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-25-2012, 01:35 PM | #110 | |
Lieutenant General
609
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
I've never argued that all machine built engines are superior. Only that given the choice for a high production volume engine, I would place my bets (and personal buying choice if I actually had one...) on the machines for the vast majority of the process. Even in the case of hand assembly, the vast majority of the part production and inspection is still likely done by machine (I guess that is obvious to many but still worth stating again). As discussed prior, we can eliminate the human from the line but for any reasonably high volume we can not eliminate the machines. Bringing it full circle faults due to machines are ultimately problems with the human team behind the machines themselves (again could be design, QC, inspection, maintenance, etc.). It would indeed be fascinating to see a video like the one above of the 3er main assembly for engines, comparing something like the Honda Accord (very high volume) to something the the M156 (AMG Engine - mass produced but much smaller volumes).
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|