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      06-22-2011, 04:44 PM   #177
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BMW can make any car they want, fwd, awd, turbo and they can put m badges to whichever model they want. Just please give us NA engined light weight 2/4 seater coupes like M3 CSL, Z4 M Coupe etc...

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Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
I spend as much time on Porsche forums as here, and no one is complaining on those forums over any of the Porsche mainstream money makers you mentioned. All the true sports car enthusiasts are too busy enjoying or dreaming of the plethora of focused products offered like the Boxster Spyder, Cayman R, Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, GT3RS, GT3RS 4.0, GT2, GT2RS, etc...

What does BMW have? The M3 is more of a luxury grand tourer than anything listed above, and the M3 GTS is worthless compared to similar priced or even less expensive Porsche products. The 1M project is a decent attempt and had the right ideas, but no one is fooled by the standard issue engine they stuck in it.

Those bread and butter money makers give Porsche the capital to offer such Halo products in order to boost the profile and heritage of the brand. Everyone knows Porsche is making a smaller profit margin on cars like the GT3 and GT2 which utilize the much more expensive to produce GT1 based Metzger engine. Yet they do it anyways for the long term benefit it gives Porsche as a brand, strengthening its reputation as a true performance manufacturer.

Meanwhile BMW utilizes its bread and butter money makers to do what? Put additional earnings into the bottom line for its investors, rather than re-invest in the brand's image and performance credentials. I suppose this is why BMW no longer claims to offer the "ultimate driving machine" when they now prefer the "efficient dynamics" of maximizing short term profit.
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      06-22-2011, 04:49 PM   #178
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I welcome M division spreading their wings. They need to be more like AMG in their product offerings while still keeping the M series more hardcore and the xM series more mainstream.
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      06-24-2011, 08:45 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
I spend as much time on Porsche forums as here, and no one is complaining on those forums over any of the Porsche mainstream money makers you mentioned.
Not true in my experience but perhaps we frequent different boards, I contribute mostly at Rennlist and not 6speed. The VW based Cayenne lit a firestorm, and there is already much hand wringing about the larger 991 being counter-brand. The Panamera was panned by the faithful until driven and accepted.

Most of the guys I race Porsches with drive a BMW to work, we appreciate each for what it is.

I feel a lot of this whining is about a perceived lose of exclusivity if we're being honest with ourselves. It's still a BMW after all, millions of them everywhere.
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      06-24-2011, 11:18 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
991 is going to be an epic car. Considering how great the 997.2 is in all forms, the 991 will surely be again a game changer.
I hope so too...as long as it doesn't get heavier with the increase in size. The wheelbase bump should move some of the rear weight bias forward, it needs it.

I will say Porsche is a master at squeezing every last dollar out of a fading platform with endless parts bin "specials", some cosmetic like the 911 GTS, Cayenne GTS, Black Edition 911 and Boxster, Cayman R, Boxster Spyder, all the Porsche Design Editions, retro Carreras... and some with teeth like the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0. Something BMW seems to be paying attention to.
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      06-29-2011, 08:17 PM   #181
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OT warning

C&D just drove the 991 and gave it a good review, but all is not well among the faithful, which is typical for any new Porsche.

The new car will be a little lighter, -55#, but gets a wheelbase increase to fit a mid-lifecycle hybrid system. It's bigger, has a Panamera like interior instead of a C-GT/918 sports car inspired cockpit, gets a huge (read: heavy) sunroof and a more nanny-ish PSM, their DSC. The reduction in low speed understeer will be welcome however.

The 'ring times seem good. Hopefully this will drop 997.1 GT3 RS prices into the low $80's in 2012, I'd love to have a green or orange one.

An excerpt and thread from Rennlist,

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...the-991-a.html

Last edited by consolidated; 06-29-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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      06-29-2011, 08:31 PM   #182
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I like the 997 cockpit more..
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      06-30-2011, 12:26 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gallian93 View Post
I miss the simpler days of "M"doom
i guess they are trying to be the M in AMG
While I agree that they're doing the AMG thing with the SUVs, I have to disagree and say that the more M cars we have, the more special M3s we'll get.
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      06-30-2011, 02:40 AM   #184
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I'm sure it will look better in person, but that new 3-Series is SO ugly.
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      07-01-2011, 03:00 PM   #185
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      07-02-2011, 03:44 AM   #186
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They are further diluting ///M and BMW in general.
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      07-02-2011, 08:49 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sameh View Post
What do you mean no sedan?? what's the HUGE difference between Gran Coupe and sedan..I thought sedan owners, well the majority just wanted 4 doors, the Gran Coupe will have 4 doors..I don't get it
Gran Coupe is for the elderly crowd. No way I'm touching it. And I'm not a wagon guy.

It does suck there will not be a new M3 sedan. M5 is just too big and bulky, so I'll have to look at other brands for a fast, sporty sedan. - Audi, Caddilac, MB. Sucks.
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      07-02-2011, 09:03 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackberry View Post
might as well. keep destroying the m brand
+1

It used to be cool to drive an M car - M3 / M5. They were cars for enthusiasts How often do you see a chick driving an M3?

Now they will have an M badge on anything to make a buck. Yes, people will buy, but it will be a different demographic than the original enthusiasts. An ///M Truck (SUV)? Come on. Seriously?

Their customer will change, and ultimately, the brand will diminish its value.

Just think what we would be saying if GM put a "V" badge on EVERY GM car? It would look silly and we would all be ripping on them.So why is it ok for BMW to put an M badge on every car?

It dilutes the image of the Motorsport brand. Cant argue that point.
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      07-02-2011, 09:53 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojorisinM3 View Post
It used to be cool to drive an M car - M3 / M5. They were cars for enthusiasts How often do you see a chick driving an M3
You are brave making that comment.

There are lots of women who are enthusiasts and better drivers than a lot of men. They may be a minority but there are still many of them. Also, my wife drives mine from time to time... she isn't an enthusiast but there is something sexy about an attractive lady driving a car like an M3.
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      07-06-2011, 02:36 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Almost every freaking model has an 'M' model. Only thing left is to have is an M for every model (E92 328 M, E92 335 M, E92 M3, etc). They don't need that many more to complete that task . It's a joke now, especially when there's nothing left of what M used to mean. It's just a marketing exercise now IMO. Good day gang.
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      07-06-2011, 09:06 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It just like music. When no one knew about Nirvana and you saw them live with Hole in a small club in Tijuana they were epic. Later, when every jock and joe-jerk-off whom they sang about and despised liked them, some of their immense appeal was absolutely gone.
Saw this thread again, and wow, missed this comment the first time thru, but its a GREAT analogy.

Cheers,
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      07-06-2011, 09:10 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
So the sedan is replaced by the Gran Coupe?
i prefer my sedan . my car is completely badass in front back and side that looks like a 328. i will stick with mine. no thanks bmw. new M5 wlooks closer to the current sedan then that lousy picture
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      07-06-2011, 09:19 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
I spend as much time on Porsche forums as here, and no one is complaining on those forums over any of the Porsche mainstream money makers you mentioned. All the true sports car enthusiasts are too busy enjoying or dreaming of the plethora of focused products offered like the Boxster Spyder, Cayman R, Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, GT3RS, GT3RS 4.0, GT2, GT2RS, etc...

What does BMW have? The M3 is more of a luxury grand tourer than anything listed above, and the M3 GTS is worthless compared to similar priced or even less expensive Porsche products. The 1M project is a decent attempt and had the right ideas, but no one is fooled by the standard issue engine they stuck in it.

Those bread and butter money makers give Porsche the capital to offer such Halo products in order to boost the profile and heritage of the brand. Everyone knows Porsche is making a smaller profit margin on cars like the GT3 and GT2 which utilize the much more expensive to produce GT1 based Metzger engine. Yet they do it anyways for the long term benefit it gives Porsche as a brand, strengthening its reputation as a true performance manufacturer.

Meanwhile BMW utilizes its bread and butter money makers to do what? Put additional earnings into the bottom line for its investors, rather than re-invest in the brand's image and performance credentials. I suppose this is why BMW no longer claims to offer the "ultimate driving machine" when they now prefer the "efficient dynamics" of maximizing short term profit.
///Marketing.
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      07-07-2011, 08:21 AM   #194
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The E30 M3 was the only M designed to race. So its really the only true "Motorsport" car. The E36 M3 didnt even have an M motor, just tuned for the U.S.

However they kept M to an "enthusiast only" formula - manual trans, high revving motor, rear drive, tight suspension, etc. Most people didnt like these cars, so it "filtered out" most folks. I found this to be cool

Now that they put the badge on a SUV with a auto and AWD, any soccer mom can drive an M around town. This is the biggest downfall and diluting the brand.

It used to be cool to be part of the "M" club. Now its not a club you DONT want to be in since your GRANDMA can have her M car too

They probably will do a M wagon - with some 85 year old lady driving it around with room for her walker lol GO BMW!

I still love my M3 and think BMW has great cars, however they've lost the coolness factor just like the Nirvana analogy used earlier. I"ll probably look to a Porsche model as my next car.
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      07-07-2011, 09:59 AM   #195
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Who cares about the mainstream / cop-out BMWs. Did the Cayenne not save Porsche from a horrible financial situation? As long as the M3 continues to satisfy us as enthusiasts, who cares how BMW makes their money!! If it's reputation you're looking for, it already sucks from owning a BMW in the first place (we get the douchebag stereotype as you are aware).
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      07-07-2011, 01:00 PM   #196
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Quote:
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Sure, there is no debate on the observation of trends. Minimally I just think your "government issue" is WAY too strong of a statement, practically I call it a falsity.
...a falsity broham?

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