Scary rod bearing thread s85

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I hate to say it but almost every one of those pictures is not because of a clearance problem. It is a oil starvation problem. The picture of the set that the bottom look good and the top look bad is a big indication of no oil. Also the main bearings that have the cavitation dots at pretty much the same angle across the set is another indicator. There are 2 ways it usually happens. 1 is the 10-60 is too damn thick for a good start up lubrication and 2 at 5-7k rpm there is probably sufficient flow to the oil system. At 8000-8500 the oil pump could be hurting to keep up with flow trying to push a oil that heavy through the system. Remember oil pressure has virtually nothing to do with what we are talking about here, it is all about flow when dealing with rpm. I still firmly believe that a 5-40 oil is the better option for us normal street drivers. If tracking the car and seeing 300 on the oil then the stock oil is probably a better option. Although we run a 5-40 at 10k rpm and 320 on the oil for hours on end with no issues.

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Maybe i'm wrong, but that BMW want that we use the 10-60 ,should be for a very....very good reason,and personal i think it's the oil consumption and it will be logic that with a 5-40 , we will consume even more oil
And i'm agreed that a 5-40 has a better lubrication , but do you want after 500 driven km's adding 1 liter of oil ?
So personal i think there are not 1 but 2 problems .....
1-The bearing problem
2-The oil consumption
And is there an oil for both problems ............. ?
I personal... i don't think so....and BMW.....actualy the same story !

Now, I'm not suggesting anything here, but this thought of using thinner oil has been thrown around a few times on this thread.

The new F10 M5 oil is a Castrol 5-30, I believe. Perhaps someone can weigh in whether it's worth the chance? But I'm on the side of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it", there's a reason why BMW elected to stay with 10-60 for the S65. I certainly don't have the technical knowledge to figure out the pros and cons to using M5 Castrol 5-30 vs the standard TWS 10-60

Originally Posted by W///

If the oil analysis is fine, then no. Why would you? Unless the report came back bad, I wouldn't look at doing that preventatively until later.

thanks for the tip, but my question was, when should I do the preventative? 60k? 80k? 100k? never until there's an indication in the oil analysis?

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by mdosu

thanks for the tip, but my question was, when should I do the preventative? 60k? 80k? 100k? never until there's an indication in the oil analysis?

That's what I would do, wait and see, and monitor. What's another $25 for analysis on top of a $115 oil change...lol

For me: At 23k 4 lead, at 37k, 5 lead, with other wear metals looking better. If at my next analysis (every other change) at ~52k I see a jump, I'll wait another change, check again, if it goes back down, no worries, stays high, worry but just keep monitoring, jumps up again, maybe time to take action

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by Richbot

That's what I would do.

At 37k, 5 lead. If at my next analysis (every other change) at ~52k I see a jump, I'll wait another change, check again, if it goes back down, no worries, stays high, worry but just keep monitoring, jumps up again, maybe time to take action

agreed, the first set of Blackstone report anaylsis always states that you need to establish a trend first before thinking about next steps. I'm kicking myself for not performing the sample in my last oil change (1 month ago).

I'm on the low mileage annual change cycle. I drive about 7500 miles a year, so I don't get many chances in the next 4-6 years to establish a trend. (unlike the guys who change their oil twice to three times a year due to track or high mileage usage)

I just ordered my kit from Blackstone, it's free until you sent in the analysis, so at least it'll remind me to collect the sample next year. Interestingly, they suggested i could have just collected it in a clean jar and transferred it to their kit later.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Maybe i'm wrong, but that BMW want that we use the 10-60 ,should be for a very....very good reason,and personal i think it's the oil consumption and it will be logic that with a 5-40 , we will consume even more oil
And i'm agreed that a 5-40 has a better lubrication , but do you want after 500 driven km's adding 1 liter of oil ?
So personal i think there are not 1 but 2 problems .....
1-The bearing problem
2-The oil consumption
And is there an oil for both problems ............. ?
I personal... i don't think so....and BMW.....actualy the same story !

You are correct on the clearance problem.
On consumption I get what you are saying but oil weight and or brand has little to do with consumption. I stated before certain oils like Quaker state seem to have more burn off than others. While it can help or hurt to a degree the fact remains the oil consumption is mainly due to a ring package that is very difficult to design for a engine such as the one we have. Having enough radial tension vs ring weight is a problem. Our pistons are not gas ported, therefore the radial tension must be kept high enough that it still seals under heavy load low rpm. Having a light weight thin ring is what you want for turning 8500 and relying on gas porting to keep the ring sealed. When a high tension heavy weight top ring is used it will actually distort quite badly and look like a wavy lays potato chip in the ring land at that rpm.
So what I am saying is the consumption will always be there because the top ring is out of control at 8500.
Furthermore I run the rotella 5-40 and I change it every 4k miles. The cost of the oil allows me to change it more often. I have NEVER had to add oil because the 4k miles or the 6 months always comes up first.
I am not knocking the tws because it really is a superior oil to almost anything on the market today. The big problem is that it is a 10-60. I am by NO means telling people what to run. If others want to run something different more power to them, or those who choose to stick with the tws that is on there own account.

[VCMpower]

I have a rod and measured big end, 56mm(2.200), then bearings, .078 thick(times 2), .156. Subtract bearing thickness from rod size, leaves 2.044. ?

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I thought the journal was 53mm on the s65, 2.086 right? Or are you talking about what we run in the race cars?

[W///]

Originally Posted by Richbot

That's what I would do, wait and see, and monitor. What's another $25 for analysis on top of a $115 oil change...lol

For me: At 23k 4 lead, at 37k, 5 lead, with other wear metals looking better. If at my next analysis (every other change) at ~52k I see a jump, I'll wait another change, check again, if it goes back down, no worries, stays high, worry but just keep monitoring, jumps up again, maybe time to take action

On my sheet, it says the average is supposed to be 9 if I'm not mistaken. So even if yours keeps going up, as long as it hovers around there, I wouldn't worry too much. Now if all of a sudden it jumps to let's say 14 (arbitrary number), then yes it might be time to take action.

[W///]

Originally Posted by mdosu

Now, I'm not suggesting anything here, but this thought of using thinner oil has been thrown around a few times on this thread.

The new F10 M5 oil is a Castrol 5-30, I believe. Perhaps someone can weigh in whether it's worth the chance? But I'm on the side of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it", there's a reason why BMW elected to stay with 10-60 for the S65. I certainly don't have the technical knowledge to figure out the pros and cons to using M5 Castrol 5-30 vs the standard TWS 10-60






thanks for the tip, but my question was, when should I do the preventative? 60k? 80k? 100k? never until there's an indication in the oil analysis?

I'd go purely based on the oil analysis. If you are at 100k at the lead levels are below the average, I wouldn't change anything IMO.

Looks like Blackstone is going to be receiving a bunch of oil kits from M3post

[mtbkr31]

On page 7 (Engine-4: Stock internals, supercharged, Mileage: 72,000), that is my engine. I replaced the bearings with the VAC coated units. Active Auto did all the work and they measured the VAC coated units with OEM stock units...the clearance was the same.

I swapped out the bearings since I upgraded the supercharger to their newest level.

Some caveats:
-I change my oil every 3-5k miles
-Let the engine warm up where the oil temp is at 210; never pass 3k rpm until then
-Used the OEM Castrol until a 1.5 years when Active switched over to Redline
-Currently per Active's recommendation I'm using Mobil Race Oil 0W50 (ran for once cycle already...sent in my sample to Blackstone)

Quite literally, after the new VAC bearings went in the car, she's had over 20-25 dyno runs to track down a boost issue. So it will be interesting to see the results from Blackstone.

In as far as Active's new supercharger...holy crap it's FAST. Very happy with the upgrade from the HKS unit. Also, I notice that my oil temps don't go as high in the past when I had the HKS unit when on long drives (i.e. 50+ miles highway in 90+ degree). I attribute that to the larger intercooler and Rotrex supercharger not having to push as much as the HKS unit to make the equivalent power.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

You are correct on the clearance problem.
On consumption I get what you are saying but oil weight and or brand has little to do with consumption. I stated before certain oils like Quaker state seem to have more burn off than others. While it can help or hurt to a degree the fact remains the oil consumption is mainly due to a ring package that is very difficult to design for a engine such as the one we have. Having enough radial tension vs ring weight is a problem. Our pistons are not gas ported, therefore the radial tension must be kept high enough that it still seals under heavy load low rpm. Having a light weight thin ring is what you want for turning 8500 and relying on gas porting to keep the ring sealed. When a high tension heavy weight top ring is used it will actually distort quite badly and look like a wavy lays potato chip in the ring land at that rpm.
So what I am saying is the consumption will always be there because the top ring is out of control at 8500.
Furthermore I run the rotella 5-40 and I change it every 4k miles. The cost of the oil allows me to change it more often. I have NEVER had to add oil because the 4k miles or the 6 months always comes up first.
I am not knocking the tws because it really is a superior oil to almost anything on the market today. The big problem is that it is a 10-60. I am by NO means telling people what to run. If others want to run something different more power to them, or those who choose to stick with the tws that is on there own account.

First,thanks for your answer.......
But for the moment we all answer a question with more questions ,and maybe i'm thinking like a fool...when i think... we need something like a scanner for metal & aluminium to check these damn bearings and looking inside the motor ,and the same time i know it's not possible !
For the oil....maybe yes....maybe no , so i need to choose the correct button...who knows v v v

[VCMpower]

I still believe regardless of all the talks, that warming your motor up, not loading it when cold, and doing more frequent oil changes and you are fine. Have fun! On a final note it has not been discussed about the damaging effect of revving your motor up in Neutral to impress friends or whatever is a no no. Oil pressure will not climb as fast as this motor can spin up to 8400rpm with no load against it. Bad news.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

I still believe regardless of all the talks, that warming your motor up, not loading it when cold, and doing more frequent oil changes and you are fine. Have fun! On a final note it has not been discussed about the damaging effect of revving your motor up in Neutral to impress friends or whatever is a no no. Oil pressure will not climb as fast as this motor can spin up to 8400rpm with no load against it. Bad news.

Agreed,and actualy i can not revving my motor when cold !
Why ?
The BPM tune... and the reduced red line limiter(reduced to 4 K RPM ) in cold start cycle,that is one of the good things about the BPM tune & DCT software

[VCMpower]

That BPM guy, who is he anyways!?

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Agreed,and actualy i can not revving my motor when cold !
Why ?
The BPM tune... and the reduced red line limiter(reduced to 4 K RPM ) in cold start cycle,that is one of the good things about the BPM tune & DCT software

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

I still believe regardless of all the talks, that warming your motor up, not loading it when cold, and doing more frequent oil changes and you are fine. Have fun! On a final note it has not been discussed about the damaging effect of revving your motor up in Neutral to impress friends or whatever is a no no. Oil pressure will not climb as fast as this motor can spin up to 8400rpm with no load against it. Bad news.

That's why there's a standing limiter at ~7,000 rpm. To keep car show attendees from blowing up their M3's in the parking lot

[VCMpower]

Originally Posted by Richbot

That's why there's a standing limiter at ~7,000 rpm. To keep car show attendees from blowing up their M3's in the parking lot

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by Richbot

That's why there's a standing limiter at ~7,000 rpm. To keep car show attendees from blowing up their M3's in the parking lot

Really?!? I think the standing limiter should be set at ~9k and allow these attendees to really show them off and impress others (when the engine blows up).

On a more serious note, I understand that it's bad to rev the engine up without load. But how is that different than rev matching on a down shift and you clutched in and rev the engine up to like around 6k rpm?

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by e92zero

On a more serious note, I understand that it's bad to rev the engine up without load. But how is that different than rev matching on a down shift and you clutched in and rev the engine up to like around 6k rpm?

mind blown...

[VCMpower]

Chances are , if you are doing this correct, your rpm when you go to rev match will not be starting from 850rpm. Oil pressure should already be there. This sound right?

Originally Posted by e92zero

Really?!? I think the standing limiter should be set at ~9k and allow these attendees to really show them off and impress others (when the engine blows up).

On a more serious note, I understand that it's bad to rev the engine up without load. But how is that different than rev matching on a down shift and you clutched in and rev the engine up to like around 6k rpm?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Check this out... v v v v v another BIG bearing problem,and one with a sad story
And...BTW this guy had just received a good oil sample from Blackstone....this shoot's off.. all the previous comments of oil samples
And now guy's what's next.........................
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858239

[VCMpower]

This is a pinion bearing!

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Check this out... v v v v v another BIG bearing problem,and one with a sad story
And...BTW this guy had just received a good oil sample from Blackstone....this shoot's off.. all the previous comments of oil samples
And now guy's what's next.........................
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858239

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

This is a pinion bearing!

Yes i know....but it's still there and....you know $$$$ !

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yes i know....but it's still there and....you know $$$$ !

Not really. You can buy a diff from a BMW dealer's online parts sales site, like BMW Morristown, for well under $2k. The BMWNA MSRP on the part is ~$2.7k even.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Not really. You can buy a diff from a BMW dealer's online parts sales site, like BMW Morristown, for well under $2k. The BMWNA MSRP on the part is ~$2.7k even.

Agreed,but without hours of labor and that counts too,actualy a lot ?