Cost of rod bearing replacement

[B767capt]

These are really great discussions. A lot of knowledgeable people here. A few of us over on the M5 side have preventively changed our rod bearings out. I did mine at 50K and had sever cavitation on the top shell. All the top shells were just starting to get into the copper. Others have been in the 80k to 100k and were way worse than mine.
My BS report only showed 8 parts pb.

What I see so far is up to this point is:
1. I assume everyone used the BMW recommendation of 10W60 up to this point. We had no reason to do otherwise up to now.
2. 100% of the bearings that have been pulled, at least on the upper shell, were in bad shape. In fact we are starting to see spun bearings showing up on cars approaching 100k regularly.
3. No one has pulled a set out that has not been bad. I know there should be some wear but to me these are accelerated.

Over on the M5 board there is a guy in Germany that frequents our forum. He has been ringing the alarm bell on these S85 bearings as he changes them every week as a side business. He's got it down to a science.

[kawasaki00]

Instead of looking at failure rates lets look at rate of bad bearing inspections. You dont want to run the engine till a rod kicks out the oil pan, right. I have yet to see ANY bearings come out from people that have actually had the pan off that looked satisfactory. From what a few of us that know what we are looking at will tell everyone every rod bearing that has been changed is on its way out due to oil starvation. Every bearing looks the same.
Although cold start is only around 2% or so of the total running time remember that 90% of all wear comes from that 2%. In terms of oil temp, 210 is not hot, every single car on the road that uses a 195 thermostat runs at least 210-220 on the oil. The only way it can run cooler is to have a external oil cooler of which most cars do not have. The cars on track that run 250 on the oil, that is fine too. Oils are so good now that 300+ is when you want to start watching pressure data.
The 0-40 is one of the highest quality oil you can buy. If the weight does not work for a certain situation then that is fine but for the porsche guys to say it is lower quality than something else is a false statement. The 5-50's on the market fall back to a 40 rather quick anyway just as the tws falls to a 40 over its life. I have tested some bottles of tws when it tests brand new at a 50 and not a 60. It is more like a 53-54 from factory tolerance. dont confuse protection factor with viscosity it can be two different things. The reason many love the 0-40 is it is one of the few blends on the market that are a true synthetic. A few redlines, royal purple and the 0-40 along with a few select others are true synthetics.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by B767capt

What I see so far is up to this point is:
100% of the bearings that have been pulled, at least on the upper shell, were in bad shape. In fact were are starting to see spun bearings showing up on cars approaching 100k regularly.
.

When the copper comes through just off axis on the upper shell yet the bottom shell looks acceptable that is from starvation. The only way to fix it is pull the crank and give proper clearance but the only band aid for now is to run thinner oil which in turn provides more flow, at the cost of changing it more often.

[B767capt]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

When the copper comes through just off axis on the upper shell yet the bottom shell looks acceptable that is from starvation. The only way to fix it is pull the crank and give proper clearance but the only band aid for now is to run thinner oil which in turn provides more flow, at the cost of changing it more often.

Agree 100% and that's what I'm doing now.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Instead of looking at failure rates lets look at rate of bad bearing inspections. You dont want to run the engine till a rod kicks out the oil pan, right. I have yet to see ANY bearings come out from people that have actually had the pan off that looked satisfactory. From what a few of us that know what we are looking at will tell everyone every rod bearing that has been changed is on its way out due to oil starvation. Every bearing looks the same.
Although cold start is only around 2% or so of the total running time remember that 90% of all wear comes from that 2%. In terms of oil temp, 210 is not hot, every single car on the road that uses a 195 thermostat runs at least 210-220 on the oil. The only way it can run cooler is to have a external oil cooler of which most cars do not have. The cars on track that run 250 on the oil, that is fine too. Oils are so good now that 300+ is when you want to start watching pressure data.
The 0-40 is one of the highest quality oil you can buy. If the weight does not work for a certain situation then that is fine but for the porsche guys to say it is lower quality than something else is a false statement. The 5-50's on the market fall back to a 40 rather quick anyway just as the tws falls to a 40 over its life. I have tested some bottles of tws when it tests brand new at a 50 and not a 60. It is more like a 53-54 from factory tolerance. dont confuse protection factor with viscosity it can be two different things. The reason many love the 0-40 is it is one of the few blends on the market that are a true synthetic. A few redlines, royal purple and the 0-40 along with a few select others are true synthetics.

Ok next question.

Are you suggesting running a lower weight oil due to cold start situations or do you feel a thinner weight oil is required for all operating temps?

The reason I ask is because switching to 0w-40 from 10w-60 will thin the oil in the engine by an order of 10 at cold temps but an order of 20 at higher temps. I admit my knowledge of oil properties is limited. That being said, my understanding is that in an equal cold temp environment (cold start) the 0w-40 is going to be thinner than 10w-60. But in a operating temp environment 0w-40 will be significantly thinner than 10w-60 as well. While the thinner oil might protect the rod bearings is there any other moving part in the engine that the engineers intended 10w-60 for? I understand that both 10w-60 and 0w-40 are quality oils but is it not true that the viscosity levels 40 weight is less than 60 weight at the same operating temp? I worry that switching to a thinner oil is inviting other problems. Thoughts?

To address the M1 0w-40 specifically.. the following link explains the crux of the issue. Again, this is a discussion of the oil brand.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Again, for Porsche there is actually a list of oils and oil brands that are approved so its quite simple to avoid M1 in favor of another brand.

Has anyone been using lighter weight oils for the majority of engine use (M5 maybe)? If so, has anyone checked the con rod bearings on these cars to aid in proving the point for lighter weight oils?

Jason

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Ok next question.

Are you suggesting running a lower weight oil due to cold start situations or do you feel a thinner weight oil is required for all operating temps?

The reason I ask is because switching to 0w-40 from 10w-60 will thin the oil in the engine by an order of 10 at cold temps but an order of 20 at higher temps. I admit my knowledge of oil properties is limited. That being said, my understanding is that in an equal cold temp environment (cold start) the 0w-40 is going to be thinner than 10w-60. But in a operating temp environment 0w-40 will be significantly thinner than 10w-60 as well. While the thinner oil might protect the rod bearings is there any other moving part in the engine that the engineers intended 10w-60 for? I understand that both 10w-60 and 0w-40 are quality oils but is it not true that the viscosity levels 40 weight is less than 60 weight at the same operating temp? I worry that switching to a thinner oil is inviting other problems. Thoughts?

To address the M1 0w-40 specifically.. the following link explains the crux of the issue. Again, this is a discussion of the oil brand.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Again, for Porsche there is actually a list of oils and oil brands that are approved so its quite simple to avoid M1 in favor of another brand.

Has anyone been using lighter weight oils for the majority of engine use (M5 maybe)? If so, has anyone checked the con rod bearings on these cars to aid in proving the point for lighter weight oils?

Jason

I feel a lighter oil is needed at cold start only because of the clearance issue. If not for that the tws would be just fine. Yes the 0-40 is lighter on all accounts both hot and cold. IF the clearance was set correctly the tws would indeed provide more protection under hot temperatures, but with all the pictures floating around I also believe that the tws is just plain falling short everywhere. Let me throw that back out there again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with tws as a oil and what it does. It just does not fit the criteria of what we need it to do.
As far as the porsche, I thing it is a terrible idea to run anything other than a 10 base weight in a air cooled engine anyway. Wasnt there a recall on all the cam gear and follower issues for the vw guys as they used the wrong material.
My bearings will be getting changed in another 10k miles so we will see what they look like after running the mobil for quite some time.

[Disciple7]

Well if many want to be proactive and just consider the bearings a wear item at this point, would say changing them out every 60k-80k miles be sufficient to get them changed out before possible catastrophic damage occurs? Should hit 60k miles in about 9 years.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Gotcha... just pointing out the 'factory' recommended oils for some of the cars you listed are in fact heavier weight than what you made it seam.

For example, below is the factory recommended oil list for Porsche engines. Latest version I could find. As you can see heavier weight oils are recommended in temps above -25 deg C. Not to place too fine a point on things, your statement appeared like you were saying its strange that BMW is only company recommending a heavier weight oil for its high performance engines. When in reality, plenty of other manufacturers recommend heavier weight oils... engine and environment dependent.

http://www.pedrosgarage.com/Site_3/P...oved_Oils.html

Below is the factory recommended list for BMW M engines.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ngineOils.aspx

Click the PDF at the bottom of the page.

I am not trying to be a dick but these forums can really amplify issues that in reality are effecting a very small percentage of cars. And, in many cases, the percentage is probably in line with what the factory considered an acceptable amount of mechanical failures. I am not sure what the percentage is, but consider there are a few hundred E9X owners in this forum with less than a dozen reported bearing failures...

Take it for what its worth, but I have the whole BMW M division on my side and on the other, there are a handful faceless forum members with varying levels of expertise.

Like I said before, I am willing to go against factory recommendations if someone shows me something concrete but at this point I just dont think the S65 has been around long enough.

When I had my Porsche 997 the #1 recommended oil was Mobil1 0w-40 as you stated. However, the 997.1 has an M96 derived motor and thus at least a small possibility (probably on the order of less than 5%) of suffering an IMS failure or IMS bearing failure. Many 6speed forum members advocated the use of Castrol or Motul oil of identical or similar weight as they had better properties. LN Engineering has a bunch of Porsche M96 experience and advocated the use, in some cases, of a higher quality oil than M1 0w-40. Thus, in this case, given the data, the level of expertise and experience at play (which went beyond just LNE) and the fact that the oils I was considering were on the Porsche approved list, I switched to Castrol and Motul. Even switching oil brands caused an uproar on 6speed despite all the stated oils being on the approved list and in this particular case there was over decade of experience with the IMS problem.


Jason

Some great points, and trust me I'm weary of switching to anything other than the TWS and I am not very knowledgable when it comes to oil specifics. My point was this 0w40 oil is used or recommended in stout high revving engines, so why not and you brought up some good points as to why it may not be the right choice if one was thinking about dropping the TWS. Do any of the factory recommendations include 10W60 on the cars I listed? Even going to 5W50 would seem better with tighter clearances, but I'll let others determine that for a fact.

[italyix]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

We are in the middle of inspection on a MY08 M3 w/ 104K on the odometer, VF540 was installed at 96K:

Tom, any updates on this?

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by italyix

Tom, any updates on this?

Just wrapping up now, posting shortly.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by italyix

Tom, any updates on this?

Posted in new thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post14544658

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Disciple7

Well if many want to be proactive and just consider the bearings a wear item at this point, would say changing them out every 60k-80k miles be sufficient to get them changed out before possible catastrophic damage occurs? Should hit 60k miles in about 9 years.

Past data suggests that 100k miles is about the average life of the rod bearings for the average user. Based on your willingness to spend $$$, service demands and how well you take care of your car will guide you in the right direction.

[W///]

Shopping around for a trust worthy place to do my bearings in the Southeast. In the meantime...

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Past data suggests that 100k miles is about the average life of the rod bearings for the average user. Based on your willingness to spend $$$, service demands and how well you take care of your car will guide you in the right direction.

well how does that help. hardly think our use is average. should we change bearing after each track day just to be safe?

[WallyM5]

See post #7

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e63...-bearings.html

[aus]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I agree with most of what is said in this thread with the exception of the recommendation to stay with the 10W60. I honestly think that the 10W60 may be a contributing factor to the bearing wear on daily driven cars. Every time the car is started with 10W60 oil that is 150F or less the bearings are starved for oil on the initial startup and until operating temperature is reached. A lighter oil isn't a fix but it is definitely a way to prolong the life of the bearings!

As for replacing bearings as a maintenance item, I think that is ludicrous. If you have no bearing issues with your engines, leave them alone, if you do have issues, take the time to do the repair right by sending the crank out and having the journals sized. This way you won't have to replace bearings sometime in the future since the actual problem causing the wear would be corrected!

My $0.02!

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I agree sir, some say the engineers at bmw know what they are doing. If that was the case we wouldn't have all the pictures of cavitation going on with the m5 and m3.

I know you guys have been proponents of M1 0W40, but what do you think about 5 quarts of M1 and 4 quarts of 10W60 if we track a little? I usually change out the oil around 7,000 miles regardless of how it was driven.

Also, kawasaki, any chance you could convince the bearing manufacturers to come out with some bearings that would give a little more clearance as "aftermarket?"

This statement is a little concerning regarding new bearing part numbers on the S85. Does this apply to us too?

Originally Posted by Duschanio

I do the job myself with my friend.
I live near Munich.
I use only Rod Bearings from BMW ! They changed the Rod Bearings in 2010 Model Year, becouse the old Bearings got lead in it. After 2010 Bearing Rods should not contain lead ! So BMW had to change the bearings into unleaded.
Result is the new bearings are harder than the old one, BUT when you got a little metal in it you immeadetly have an Bearing Rod issue. With the old, it has incorporated a little becouse the Surface was softer.
I say that the new bearings are better but i only changed mine with 30.000 KM becouse my oil pan was set off and they looked very good !
I want to say that i dont want to scare all members in this board but when some people write these engines got no problems with bearings I MUST WRITE !
Becouse for everybody who got an engine fail its very expenisve !

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e63...ml#post3646777

This guy has done a bunch of bearing changes on the S65 and S85.

.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by aus

This guy has done a bunch of bearing changes on the S65 and S85.

.

This guy is a true pro ... he knows his stuff.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by aus

I know you guys have been proponents of M1 0W40, but what do you think about 5 quarts of M1 and 4 quarts of 10W60 if we track a little? I usually change out the oil around 7,000 miles regardless of how it was driven.

Also, kawasaki, any chance you could convince the bearing manufacturers to come out with some bearings that would give a little more clearance as "aftermarket?"

I have recommended a mix to a few other guys running blowers, if mixing I would not mix the tws with mobil. It is two different base stock packages. Better option would be 5qt 0-40 and 4qt 15-50. The 15-50 has extra zinc also. The 15-50 is thinner than the tws cold so dont let the 15wt fool you.

I have been talking to one of the clevite guys about -.001 bearings but probably not looking too good on that unless the request comes from the manufacturer. They can get us some but the cost would be way too much for a few sets. Need to order like a thousand sets to get good price.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Need to order like a thousand sets to get good price.

Sure we can find 1000 both M3 and M5 owners here to commit. Even if we don't go out and change the bearing straight away, even doing it later will be very useful especially with the additional conformed clearance. Kawasaki, why won't you explore further.

Count on me here.

[Wendall]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Sure we can find 1000 both M3 and M5 owners here to commit. Even if we don't go out and change the bearing straight away, even doing it later will be very useful especially with the additional conformed clearance. Kawasaki, why won't you explore further.

Count on me here.

Id be in for a set.

[1MOREMOD]

group buy for 1000 units is gonna be a little hard to coordinate.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Sure we can find 1000 both M3 and M5 owners here to commit. Even if we don't go out and change the bearing straight away, even doing it later will be very useful especially with the additional conformed clearance. Kawasaki, why won't you explore further.

Count on me here.

I am not giving up but obtaining a hard to get part is easy with connections but obtaining a part that is not manufactred yet is something totally different.

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

group buy for 1000 units is gonna be a little hard to coordinate.

$400 a set x1000
$400,000 dollar order. My credit card doesnt go that high, anyone with a american express black want to chime in. LOL