The rumour has it! M3 V8 Nordschleife in 8.03 min

[devo]

Originally Posted by ILC32

There is no evidence the tires are not approved for the street.

If the tires are available as an option, then the test is fair. To use a "benchmark" tire for all cars is an interesting idea, but not practical for many reasons, including continually advancing technology.

If to make it fair, the Porsche has to use the exact same tires as the M even if the tires are not available from Porsche, then what else should be the same for comparison purposes to ensure fairness? Do both cars have to use the same brake pads also? The M cannot be obtained with ceramic brakes. To be fair, should the M get Porsche's brakes while the Porsche gets the M's tires?

Maybe it is I that am confused then. Since the M is not available in the states I can't attest to what tires will be available. But, from what I know Cup tires by definition are not DOT street legal tires. So, I am unaware how these tires can be available as an option.

If you were simply applying contemporary performance tires with each respective car, I would agree with you (Use whatever current tires are available as OEM), but since these tires (Cup) are not designed for the street; and certainly won't be available in the states as an option, I don't see how you can believe what you say.

As far as mentioning the options as you did, well, then consider running a C2S equipped w/ X51, PCCB (Ceramic Brake), LSD w/ 20mm suspension (All available in street trim in Europe) AND add Cup tires to the C2S. Trust me it would spank the M; it would be unfair, but it's your idea.

That 3 year old C2S without Cup tires or the LSD option has already run a 7:59.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by devo

Maybe it is I that am confused then. Since the M is not available in the states I can't attest to what tires will be available. But, from what I know Cup tires by definition are not DOT street legal tires. So, I am unaware how these tires can be available as an option.

If you were simply applying contemporary performance tires with each respective car, I would agree with you (Use whatever current tires are available as OEM), but since these tires (Cup) are not designed for the street; and certainly won't be available in the states as an option, I don't see how you can believe what you say.

As far as mentioning the options as you did, well, then consider running a C2S equipped w/ X51, PCCB (Ceramic Brake), LSD w/ 20mm suspension (All available in street trim in Europe) AND add Cup tires to the C2S. Trust me it would spank the M; it would be unfair, but it's your idea.

I am getting this information from member MarkJenz. Take a look at: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...t=82013&page=5

Pilot Sport Cup tires ARE APPROVED FOR THE STREET, by the way. From Michilin's site: "A competition-oriented summer tire that was developed directly out of knowledge gleaned from the track, Pilot® Sport Cup tires are DOT (Department of Transportation)-approved for street use. They help deliver extreme cornering power in wet and dry conditions, exceptional heat resistance, long track life, and consistent lap times. This tire is original equipment on the BMW M3 CSL, Porsche Carrera GT3 RS and optional on the Porsche Carrera GT3."

Take a look at:
http://www.michelinman.com/tires/ult...lot-sport-cup/

As to the last part of your post re:X51, etc., I do not think it would be "unfair" to compare the M with the 997S in that configuration. I am no fanboi, I agree with you that the 997S would win that contest.

EDIT: I notice you drive a 997 Turbo. Congratulations on the beautiful car!

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by ILC32

There is no evidence the tires are not approved for the street.

If the tires are available as an option, then the test is fair. To use a "benchmark" tire for all cars is an interesting idea, but not practical for many reasons, including continually advancing technology.

If to make it fair, the Porsche has to use the exact same tires as the M even if the tires are not available from Porsche, then what else should be the same for comparison purposes to ensure fairness? Do both cars have to use the same brake pads also? The M cannot be obtained with ceramic brakes. To be fair, should the M get Porsche's brakes while the Porsche gets the M's tires?

All things equal, tyres is the single biggest factor affecting performance especially on the track. A P-Zero Corsa has a much higher dry grip factor compared to P-Zero Rosso, is able to sustain its grip level at a higher temperature and maintain it thread block without disintegrating on continuous abuse (hard cornering). The Corsa also has thinner thread depth to prevent too much heat from building up at high speed runs. I would think a semi-slick like the Corsa is a good 5-7s faster over a single dry lap at the Ring compared to Rosso. But on wet surfaces, its grip threshold is much lower and you'll be slipping and sliding if you push it.

Lets not forget the C2S is 65bhp down on the M3

[devo]

Originally Posted by ILC32

I am getting this information from member MarkJenz. Take a look at: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...t=82013&page=5

Pilot Sport Cup tires ARE APPROVED FOR THE STREET, by the way. From Michilin's site: "A competition-oriented summer tire that was developed directly out of knowledge gleaned from the track, Pilot® Sport Cup tires are DOT (Department of Transportation)-approved for street use. They help deliver extreme cornering power in wet and dry conditions, exceptional heat resistance, long track life, and consistent lap times. This tire is original equipment on the BMW M3 CSL, Porsche Carrera GT3 RS and optional on the Porsche Carrera GT3."

Take a look at:
http://www.michelinman.com/tires/ult...lot-sport-cup/

As to the last part of your post re:X51, etc., I do not think it would be "unfair" to compare the M with the 997S in that configuration. I am no fanboi, I agree with you that the 997S would win that contest.

EDIT: I notice you drive a 997 Turbo. Congratulations on the beautiful car!

I just can't give BMW all the credit due for the lap times, given that the tires used have such a huge advantage. Tires are something so easily changed and are not really part of the car.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by devo

I just can't give BMW all the credit due for the lap times, given that the tires used have such a huge advantage. Tires are something so easily changed and are not really part of the car.

Then if you are consistent and not just having trouble with the idea the M3 could have an equal or better ring time than a Porsche, it seems Porsche should not get "credit" for the time of the 997GT3 because it is equipped with cup tires?

[lucid]

This particular test/time has so many uncontrolled variables to begin with that I don't see the point in arguing about tires here as long as the car that is being tested is equipped with street legal tires--ones that can be purchased at any tire store and installed on your car within 30 minutes. It's not as if they are dropping a different engine in or upgrading the suspension or something, which would be non-stock configurations. There is nothing about the tires that makes them "stock" apart from the fact that the car left the factory that way. Unlike the engine or the suspension, the tires are expected to wear out quickly, and you are expected to buy new ones--any set of street legal tires. Regardless, it would be good to have the tires used in the test documented though.

[devo]

Originally Posted by ILC32

Then if you are consistent and not just having trouble with the idea the M3 could have an equal or better ring time than a Porsche, it seems Porsche should not get "credit" for the time of the 997GT3 because it is equipped with cup tires?

I might agree with that if it were compared against a car without them.

[devo]

Originally Posted by ILC32

I am getting this information from member MarkJenz. Take a look at: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...t=82013&page=5

Pilot Sport Cup tires ARE APPROVED FOR THE STREET, by the way. From Michilin's site: "A competition-oriented summer tire that was developed directly out of knowledge gleaned from the track, Pilot® Sport Cup tires are DOT (Department of Transportation)-approved for street use. They help deliver extreme cornering power in wet and dry conditions, exceptional heat resistance, long track life, and consistent lap times. This tire is original equipment on the BMW M3 CSL, Porsche Carrera GT3 RS and optional on the Porsche Carrera GT3."

Take a look at:
http://www.michelinman.com/tires/ult...lot-sport-cup/

As to the last part of your post re:X51, etc., I do not think it would be "unfair" to compare the M with the 997S in that configuration. I am no fanboi, I agree with you that the 997S would win that contest.

EDIT: I notice you drive a 997 Turbo. Congratulations on the beautiful car!

Oh...thanks for the congrats on the turbo, but I sold it. I just can't get myself to edit it. The turbo was too sterile for such a fast car.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by ILC32

Then if you are consistent and not just having trouble with the idea the M3 could have an equal or better ring time than a Porsche, it seems Porsche should not get "credit" for the time of the 997GT3 because it is equipped with cup tires?

The GT3 is a whole different ball game... race grade engine, suspension and if I remember correctly it comes standard with the semi-slick tyres. The upcoming CSL would be a more direct comparison.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Good rumors and good news, but not all good.

BMW insists that the car is the fastest M and if the only way it bested the M6 at 8:06 is with the tires that is just like all of the "weight savings" BMW keep mentioning for the M3. South: was the R8 8:04 on semi-race tires? Again if so this is GREAT. It is a good time either way but like devo said to make apples to apples comparisons we need a time with the regular M.P.S.s.

Anyone want to take the sub 8 minute bet I mentioned earlier with Cup+&M-DCT? It is going to be really close. This result makes me lose a bit of confidence in that prediction.

R8 ran on Pirelli P Zero Corsa. So the answer is yes, 8:04 on UHP tires.
Referring the bet: Why did you lose some confidence here, shouldn't the DCT be able to save 3 seconds? (I think that's possible)

Best regards, south

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by southlight

R8 ran on Pirelli P Zero Corsa. So the answer is yes, 8:04 on UHP tires.
Referring the bet: Why did you lose some confidence here, shouldn't the DCT be able to save 3 seconds? (I think that's possible)

Best regards, south

It should be able to save more than 3 seconds on this track. The longer the track the more time to be saved. I think.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by southlight

R8 ran on Pirelli P Zero Corsa. So the answer is yes, 8:04 on UHP tires.
Referring the bet: Why did you lose some confidence here, shouldn't the DCT be able to save 3 seconds? (I think that's possible)

Best regards, south

I still think breaking 8 with UMP+DCT is possible. My initial estimate was that DCT should be good for a full 5-10 seconds on the N'ring. However, I also thought we would be seeing low 8 minute times WITHOUT the UHP tires. Since one bullet has been removed from my gun by the tires I am only left with one bullet. Get the analogy? That is why my confidence is down just a bit.

[The CSL]

Originally Posted by Just_me

No idea. Hopefully after BS test Regarding BS it should make it in 7.57-7.58 min

Slower than the CSL on R tyres.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by lucid

This particular test/time has so many uncontrolled variables to begin with that I don't see the point in arguing about tires here as long as the car that is being tested is equipped with street legal tires--ones that can be purchased at any tire store and installed on your car within 30 minutes. It's not as if they are dropping a different engine in or upgrading the suspension or something, which would be non-stock configurations. There is nothing about the tires that makes them "stock" apart from the fact that the car left the factory that way. Unlike the engine or the suspension, the tires are expected to wear out quickly, and you are expected to buy new ones--any set of street legal tires. Regardless, it would be good to have the tires used in the test documented though.

????

The whole point of SportAuto doing ring times is to eliminate "claimed" ring times so that everyone can see an apples-to-apples comparison. The community on a whole accepts SportAuto's ring times as the "Official" times because their scrutiny is on the level.

Your not going to send SportAuto an over boosted STI and try and fool them, they thoughoughly check the cars to make sure they are STOCK (Sport Cars are engineered with specific components, and if they come with PS2's, then that is STOCK... there is no argueing this, no interpretation and no doubt what you replace it with, anything else is not "stock") . If the ring car is sent with anything other than stock trim, there will be an * (asterik) next to the lap time when it is finally logged into the books.


Now... that said, it is most likely the 8:03 time is stock. There have been test with and without CUP tyres and ithe measures result is about a gain of 5~7 seconds.


The reason any would test with CUP tyres is to actually test the chasis and stressing their components, since those tyres give greater grip and really show off a cars chasis.

Stock time is all that matter on the Nurb track times, once you have an Official M3 stock time, then you can extrapolate other data.





-Garrett

[heyimsexy]

Originally Posted by dechoong

Lets not forget the C2S is 65bhp down on the M3

and possibly $10,000 more expensive and more focused.


e92 CSL with DCT ftw

[heyimsexy]

Originally Posted by devo

I just can't give BMW all the credit due for the lap times, given that the tires used have such a huge advantage. Tires are something so easily changed and are not really part of the car.

woah woah woah, what do you mean tires arent part of the car? if it came that way from the factory it is part of the car, just like all the other parts.

sounds like a fanboy just doesnt want to see this car get a good time

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by Garrett

????

The whole point of SportAuto doing ring times is to eliminate "claimed" ring times so that everyone can see an apples-to-apples comparison. The community on a whole accepts SportAuto's ring times as the "Official" times because their scrutiny is on the level.

Your not going to send SportAuto an over boosted STI and try and fool them, they thoughoughly check the cars to make sure they are STOCK (Sport Cars are engineered with specific components, and if they come with PS2's, then that is STOCK... there is no argueing this, no interpretation and no doubt what you replace it with, anything else is not "stock") . If the ring car is sent with anything other than stock trim, there will be an * (asterik) next to the lap time when it is finally logged into the books.


Now... that said, it is most likely the 8:03 time is stock. There have been test with and without CUP tyres and ithe measures result is about a gain of 5~7 seconds.


The reason any would test with CUP tyres is to actually test the chasis and stressing their components, since those tyres give greater grip and really show off a cars chasis.

Stock time is all that matter on the Nurb track times, once you have an Official M3 stock time, then you can extrapolate other data.





-Garrett

+1

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Garrett

The whole point of SportAuto doing ring times is to eliminate "claimed" ring times so that everyone can see an apples-to-apples comparison. The community on a whole accepts SportAuto's ring times as the "Official" times because their scrutiny is on the level.

Yeah, right, you are telling me that tests of different cars in different weather conditions (wind, temp, pressure, etc.) and especially with different drivers is an apples to apples comparison!? (Don't tell me they control for the driver effect by hiring pros or something). Get real. See Bruce's post on this forum about the effect of such variables on a simple 0-60 test. Then people pick on tires and start splitting hairs as if they are the only variable here. The only way you will get a somewhat apples to apples comparison is if you test the cars back to back with the same driver although weather conditions can still vary and one car might suit the driver's style better than the other.

Originally Posted by Garrett

Your not going to send SportAuto an over boosted STI and try and fool them, they thoughoughly check the cars to make sure they are STOCK (Sport Cars are engineered with specific components, and if they come with PS2's, then that is STOCK... there is no argueing this, no interpretation and no doubt what you replace it with, anything else is not "stock") .

Did you read what I wrote. Did I say anywhere in there that modifying the engine would not make the car non-stock? Read again why I set the tires apart from the engine: one is expected to last the lifetime of the car, the other is expected to be a variable during the lifetime of the car, and replaced within the first year for a high performance car like the M3.

Originally Posted by Garrett

Stock time is all that matter on the Nurb track times, once you have an Official M3 stock time, then you can extrapolate other data.

You don't need factory tires to be able to extrapolate from data if that's what you really want to do. All you need is to document whatever tires were used in the test, which is what I said in my initial post, and go from there.

[savage.ulm1]

can someone be so kind to tell me the differences between the semi R tires used by the rs4 (8.09 sec at the Ring) and the Michelin sport pilot that come standard with the M3? are the semi R used by Audi similar to the Michelin sport pilot "CUP" (that eventually were used to obtain the 8.03 we are speaking in these days and we still don't know exactly) or better?Can someone confirm that really the Audi's time was made NOT with the standard tires but with these high performances tires (semi R)?
Why the other Ring time is quoted at 7,58 for the RS4? did they use carbon ceramic brakes also?could they really help at RING?
too many questions I know:-))
thanks

[devo]

Originally Posted by heyimsexy

woah woah woah, what do you mean tires arent part of the car? if it came that way from the factory it is part of the car, just like all the other parts.

sounds like a fanboy just doesnt want to see this car get a good time

Let me put it this way. The tires enabled the M to achieve the lap time that it did. If it were not for the tires, it would run an 8:10-8:12. So, I stand behind my post. Anyone can add a set of tires to a car. Other options like brake upgrades etc... are another story, but tires give me a F-ing break.

Calling me a fanboy is rather childish, isn't it? Take the time to read my previous posts, where I state numerous times that I am buying one of these cars. Or, do you just respond like a childish little brat because I posted something you didn't like?!

We don't even know if these tires will be available as an option in the states.Take away the tires and the car is way off the 997S's time. That's my point.

No matter how many times someone attempts to justify times with Cup tires, these times will always be viewed with a dose of skeptism.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by lucid

Yeah, right, you are telling me that tests of different cars in different weather conditions (wind, temp, pressure, etc.) and especially with different drivers is an apples to apples comparison!? (Don't tell me they control for the driver effect by hiring pros or something). Get real. See Bruce's post on this forum about the effect of such variables on a simple 0-60 test. Then people pick on tires and start splitting hairs as if they are the only variable here. The only way you will get a somewhat apples to apples comparison is if you test the cars back to back with the same driver although weather conditions can still vary and one car might suit the driver's style better than the other.

Just this: Sportauto Supertest is indeed performed by one person. Only Horst von Saurma, chief editor of Sportauto, drives the cars for this test.

Best regards, south

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by devo

Let me put it this way. The tires enabled the M to achieve the lap time that it did. If it were not for the tires, it would run an 8:10-8:12. So, I stand behind my post. Anyone can add a set of tires to a car. Other options like brake upgrades etc... are another story, but tires give me a F-ing break.

Calling me a fanboy is rather childish, isn't it? Take the time to read my previous posts, where I state numerous times that I am buying one of these cars. Or, do you just respond like a childish little brat because I posted something you didn't like?!

We don't even know if these tires will be available as an option in the states.Take away the tires and the car is way off the 997S's time. That's my point.

No matter how many times someone attempts to justify times with Cup tires, these times will always be viewed with a dose of skeptism.

Devo, I just have to jump in here. Why do you attempt to prove your point by arguing like you are 100% sure the M3 had Cup tires? You spend alot of energy and you word your posts like the M3 had Cup tires and is therefore not that fast?
If you claim to be unbiased and all that jazz, then don't argue your point as if the M3 definately had Cup tires. We just don't know and to post otherwise is presumptuous.