Supercharged e9x M3 or a certified 911 Turbo?

[Cabinetman]

Originally Posted by devo

Good to hear that you're happy with your choice. Yeah, having fun going fast can be much more enjoyable than simply being in the faster car. I feel the same way when I compare my .1 turbo to my present GT3; the latter is MUCH more fun.

I could see myself in a GT3 down the road. The problem is I have never driven one so I'm not sure how good of a road car it is. I don't daily drive my current 997, but when I do drive it I'm on the street and not the track.

[adc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

People dont realize how perfect the suspension is on the GT3 in every apsect of handling that it really doesnt feel like a rear engined car.

And in normal or spirited driving they don't. But a lot of people driving it really hard tend to discover it's still rear-engined after all when they crash it.

Of course most people (including GT3 owners) never drive them on track and have no idea what I'm talking about. But personally, I'm very scared of cars like the GT3 - cars that are progressive/dialed-in/forgiving right up to the point when they aren't anymore.

It is so well balanced and dialed in that really there is nothing within ~75-100K of its price range that can even remotely come close, and those that do (which are much more expensive too) can only match it.

Except the GT-R?

[Chako]

I am thinking hard regarding this question as well. Both cars have already taken the initial depreciation hit. If you go with a reputable brand for supercharging, I think in the next couple of years both cars will be fairly reliable too.

Other points to consider:

-Porsche 997.1 Turbo as an overall package is a more complete driving experience

-SC M3 is more practical, and has a lower cost of entry (I believe final cost will be substantially lower all things considered as well, but time will tell.)

I am personally leaning towards keeping my M3.

[devo]

Originally Posted by adc

And in normal or spirited driving they don't. But a lot of people driving it really hard tend to discover it's still rear-engined after all when they crash it.

Of course most people (including GT3 owners) never drive them on track and have no idea what I'm talking about. But personally, I'm very scared of cars like the GT3 - cars that are progressive/dialed-in/forgiving right up to the point when they aren't anymore.




Except the GT-R?

The .2 GT3 has PSM as well as TC, so unless you turn these off and/or define the laws of logic there won't be any problems on the street. However, like you said, on the track with the nannies off you'd better not explore the absolute limits of adhesive without a great deal of experience.

[335iTrace]

Turbo... Looks, name, awd, interior, $$ in the long run.

once you SC the M you are on your own...

[devo]

Originally Posted by Cabinetman

I could see myself in a GT3 down the road. The problem is I have never driven one so I'm not sure how good of a road car it is. I don't daily drive my current 997, but when I do drive it I'm on the street and not the track.

It's everything you love about the 997 C2/4(S)s but more focused and edgier. Yeah, it has a little less insulation, a somewhat harder clutch (I actually prefer this type of clutch), is a little more firm than SPASM on the .2s with a louder intake symphony and exhaust note to the point that you wonder if you'll ever want to turn the stereo on. The person who wants an everyday long drive, heavy traffic commuter car, maybe it won't work, but I wouldn't want any sports car for that. I don't track mine and it's perfect for the street. I drove 300 miles to NY to have it clear bar-ed and felt like i could have done another 300 miles.

[attila]

Originally Posted by devo

It's everything you love about the 997 C2/4(S)s but more focused and edgier. Yeah, it has a little less insulation, a somewhat harder clutch (I actually prefer this type of clutch), is a little more firm than SPASM on the .2s with a louder intake symphony and exhaust note to the point that you wonder if you'll ever want to turn the stereo on. The person who wants an everyday long drive, heavy traffic commuter car, maybe it won't work, but I wouldn't want any sports car for that. I don't track mine and it's perfect for the street. I drove 300 miles to NY to have it clear bar-ed and felt like i could have done another 300 miles.

Do you track your car? How the GT3 compares to the 997 c2s on the track.
I just cannot decide to get a GT3 and keep the M3 or trade the M3 for a Turbo S. Both would be about $120-125K.
I did drive a 08 997 C2S on the track - only for 3 sessions - truth to be told, but was not blown away by it. The most I did not like is the up and down motion of the front end. Did not feel planted.
I like what I read about the GT3 but never driven one. Little bit too expensive just for track car especially since I just bought a new MX-5 for track use.

[adc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Actually, youd be suprised by the numbers fo GT3 owners who do track them. About 70% of them see track time. It happens to be one of the most tracked cars.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...e-911-gt3.aspx

I'm very surprised to read that - it may turn up to be true after all, although it seemed to me that the GT3 was bought more because of its status and rarity. I could be entirely wrong of course...

Have you driven a GT3 on the track? Curious as to where your assessment is coming from.

No I haven't. But I saw one spin and read about a few other crashes. There was one story about a former BMW owner who bought a GT3 for the usual reasons (feedback, feel, speed etc.) and took it to a track where a driver who races Porsches in some series was the featured personality of the day. The pro decided to instruct in our guy's GT3, to sort of show off the car's capabilities. Everything went exceedingly well until he crashed it and put it on the roof. Needless to say, if a pro can do that within a few laps, it tends to give pause to mere mortals like me. Perhaps if my budget would comfortably allow for a replacement car...

Porsche puts truly massive tires in the rear of the GT3 so it grips like mad and people learn to trust it - but ultimately when driven at the limit (or in slippery conditions rain etc.) it's still got most of its weight in the back, so I find it hard to believe you will not spin.


Anecdotally, when I visited Nurburgring in 2007 the GT3 was the most crashed performance car there. The guy I stayed with at the hotel at the time had a gorgeous black/orange 997.1 GT3 (maybe even RS? don't recall) and he promptly crashed it the following day during a morning session. I asked around the paddock and was told it's a very common scenario.


There's another element - the GT3 is given such high praise by magazines (with excellent drivers of course) that it almost gets this aura of invincibility, of supreme crushing ability. But in the hands of an average driver? Don't know... Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but having driven at speed (and being driven at even greater speed) around various racetracks, I want a car with a HUGE margin for error, because I know my limitations.

No matter what car you drive, you need to respect its capabilties and learn to drive it. Whether its something as easy to drive as a Cayman S or an M3 where you feel so confident you push past its/your limits and end up in a wall, or one that requires more attention like a GT3/Scuderia/Lambo where you need to truly need to take the time to progress.

Very true - it's just that cars like the M3/Cayman etc stay with you far longer than you even hope for. The learning curve is not as steep or long as in the GT3, the margin for error is bigger.

GTR has a drivetrain that does everything for you...and doesnt feel close to the organic connected soulful feelign you get from a GT3.

Absolutely agree - I'd never ever consider owning one. But it does everything the GT3 does in terms of performance, for $20-30k less. People wanting to supercharge their M3's should probably give it a try.

[devo]

Originally Posted by adc

I'm very surprised to read that - it may turn up to be true after all, although it seemed to me that the GT3 was bought more because of its status and rarity. I could be entirely wrong of course...



No I haven't. But I saw one spin and read about a few other crashes. There was one story about a former BMW owner who bought a GT3 for the usual reasons (feedback, feel, speed etc.) and took it to a track where a driver who races Porsches in some series was the featured personality of the day. The pro decided to instruct in our guy's GT3, to sort of show off the car's capabilities. Everything went exceedingly well until he crashed it and put it on the roof. Needless to say, if a pro can do that within a few laps, it tends to give pause to mere mortals like me. Perhaps if my budget would comfortably allow for a replacement car...

Porsche puts truly massive tires in the rear of the GT3 so it grips like mad and people learn to trust it - but ultimately when driven at the limit (or in slippery conditions rain etc.) it's still got most of its weight in the back, so I find it hard to believe you will not spin.


Anecdotally, when I visited Nurburgring in 2007 the GT3 was the most crashed performance car there. The guy I stayed with at the hotel at the time had a gorgeous black/orange 997.1 GT3 (maybe even RS? don't recall) and he promptly crashed it the following day during a morning session. I asked around the paddock and was told it's a very common scenario.


There's another element - the GT3 is given such high praise by magazines (with excellent drivers of course) that it almost gets this aura of invincibility, of supreme crushing ability. But in the hands of an average driver? Don't know... Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but having driven at speed (and being driven at even greater speed) around various racetracks, I want a car with a HUGE margin for error, because I know my limitations.



Very true - it's just that cars like the M3/Cayman etc stay with you far longer than you even hope for. The learning curve is not as steep or long as in the GT3, the margin for error is bigger.



Absolutely agree - I'd never ever consider owning one. But it does everything the GT3 does in terms of performance, for $20-30k less. People wanting to supercharge their M3's should probably give it a try.

FTR, the rear tires on a GT3 (305) are only 10mm wider than the C2S (a C2S can be equipped w/factory 305s with optional OEM wheels) and the same width as the C4S or turbos.

[devo]

Originally Posted by attila

Do you track your car? How the GT3 compares to the 997 c2s on the track.
I just cannot decide to get a GT3 and keep the M3 or trade the M3 for a Turbo S. Both would be about $120-125K.
I did drive a 08 997 C2S on the track - only for 3 sessions - truth to be told, but was not blown away by it. The most I did not like is the up and down motion of the front end. Did not feel planted.
I like what I read about the GT3 but never driven one. Little bit too expensive just for track car especially since I just bought a new MX-5 for track use.

Unfortunately I do not track it.

As wicked as a 997 turbo S would be, I'd likely keep your M and get the .2 gt3. A turbo S is also going to cost another $40k over the gt3.

[adc]

Originally Posted by devo

FTR, the rear tires on a GT3 (305) are only 10mm wider than the C2S (a C2S can be equipped w/factory 305s with optional OEM wheels) and the same width as the C4S or turbos.

Yes, and 305 are positively HUGE for a car weighing only 3100-3200 lbs. But as I've said, there's a good reason for it - to keep people from dying.

If you could put tires as big on the M3 (with correct fronts), I think track times would tumble significantly.

[TheKosherStogie]

since it seems there is some gt3 discussion going on...i just took mine to the track...(also note that the new on has PSM - porsche stability management, not just traction control...so that can save you from spinning if u leave it on.

The car gave tons of feedback, which definitely helps on the track. But yes, if you let off the throttle mid turn you feel the weight transfer and the back end gets light and wants to come around....i found the trick is (which is how you are supposed to drive a porsche) slow in, fast out....the car has so much traction exiting the turn due to the rear engine...you want to take advantage of it, and u cant if you go in too fast. Also when u go in too fast is when u want to let off the throttle...then it goes from understeer to oversteer. So take advantage of its great brakes, slow down, turn in..and get on the throttle baby. I was taken around the track by a pro...and i was in shock how fast the guy exited the turn..it was amazing...he would be flat out thru some parts i didnt understand it.

but yes people spin them all day. I went off the track...didnt spin, knew i couldnt make the turn so i drive straight off, LOL

[turb0mik3]

Originally Posted by Crazy Bimmer

OK i gotta ask, what made you think that a SC M3 is WAY faster than a new 911 turbo?

Stock 911 turbo does 11 flat in the 1/4:

Have yet to see any SC M3 come near that. The 911t almost beats the M3 in every performance category.

This thread is almost like the 335 guys saying their cars are better because its faster with a tune. Dont be that guy.

Well, technically if we have an LSD, tune, and full M3 suspension talk we can mention it.

[mikewads]

Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD

since it seems there is some gt3 discussion going on...i just took mine to the track...(also note that the new on has PSM - porsche stability management, not just traction control...so that can save you from spinning if u leave it on.

The car gave tons of feedback, which definitely helps on the track. But yes, if you let off the throttle mid turn you feel the weight transfer and the back end gets light and wants to come around....i found the trick is (which is how you are supposed to drive a porsche) slow in, fast out....the car has so much traction exiting the turn due to the rear engine...you want to take advantage of it, and u cant if you go in too fast. Also when u go in too fast is when u want to let off the throttle...then it goes from understeer to oversteer. So take advantage of its great brakes, slow down, turn in..and get on the throttle baby. I was taken around the track by a pro...and i was in shock how fast the guy exited the turn..it was amazing...he would be flat out thru some parts i didnt understand it.

but yes people spin them all day. I went off the track...didnt spin, knew i couldnt make the turn so i drive straight off, LOL

Good info. Thanks for sharing.

[adc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

In my experience the type of tire is just as important as the width. I wouldnt think going up 10 or 20 mms would make a significant difference. Someone should try it and see how the results turn out.

Eh, the M3 comes with 265 rears, stock. Going to 305 is a massive increase of grip. (Of course, the fronts would need upgrading too). There is absolutely zero doubt the lap times would go down significantly.

What's more, the M3 is very sensitive to small changes - I increased front/rear track by 50mm via spacers and it has measurably changed grip. At the expense of some predictability I should say - I'll post a full report on my next track day on a very technical circuit.


The ZR1 I got a ride in also has a massive footprint for its weight, and the result is, predictably, some incredible lap times. The guy caught up with a well driven 360 CS just by using mostly 3rd gear on a barely broken-in car. But there was no feedback - his words, not mine - and fast lapping was simply a matter of trust in the car's grip.

[adc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I am more questioning just how significant a difference it will make. Will it decrease a 1:30 lap by .5 seconds? 1 second? Just how significant will they be?

A good 1-2 seconds would be my estimate - the accepted range for a successful tire upgrade. You are effectively increasing the size of the contact patch by 15%. Rotational inertia increase can be nullified via lighter wheels and alignment changes are a given - but ultimately grip is grip.

Don't have a hard time imagining this - think about how lap times would increase should you put 265 section tires (or narrower) in the back of the GT3.

[BlancM3]

Originally Posted by yemenmocha

But... but... I thought I read in a car magazine that stock e92 M3 > stock 911 turbo. So of course SC M3 must be better.

Umm not sure which magazine and would you care to illustrate how is the M3 greater than the 911 turbo?