Stock 03' E46 330CI hangs with E90 M3's at the track

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by Sauce

Lol sorry this made me laugh.

I was serious. As important as the driver is, there is nobody that is going to take a bone stock miata and turn a 2:10 at VIR, the car just can't do it. I can't turn that time either, but I'm pretty confident a stock miata can't run a 2:15-17 anyway

I'm not an expert, and there are guys that can run at least 5 seconds than me in my car, but they are pros for the most part. Hell, Leh ran a 2:08 on PS2's. But that's the reigning rolex GT champ driving the piss out of the car.

You have to weigh the speed of the car and the skills of the driver, and for a stock miata to pass a stock E92 M3 the M driver has to be leaving a bunch of time on the table.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

I was serious. As important as the driver is, there is nobody that is going to take a bone stock miata and turn a 2:10 at VIR, the car just can't do it. I can't turn that time either, but I'm pretty confident a stock miata can't run a 2:15-17 anyway

I'm not an expert, and there are guys that can run at least 5 seconds than me in my car, but they are pros for the most part. Hell, Leh ran a 2:08 on PS2's. But that's the reigning rolex GT champ driving the piss out of the car.

You have to weigh the speed of the car and the skills of the driver, and for a stock miata to pass a stock E92 M3 the M driver has to be leaving a bunch of time on the table.

I know your serious, it's just funny that spawned from my comment. I don't think I've ever seen a stock miata on a track either lol. What do the spec miatas run at VIR? On a first name basis w/ Mr. Keen are ya

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by Sauce

I know your serious, it's just funny that spawned from my comment. I don't think I've ever seen a stock miata on a track either lol. What do the spec miatas run at VIR? On a first name basis w/ Mr. Keen are ya

ha true, and spec miata record is close to what I run. Yep, I am. He's a super nice guy and I've ridden with him a few times and had him ride along with me. And by riding with him I realize how far I am from being a great driver. So don't take my "miatas are slower than me" comment the wrong way.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

ha true, and spec miata record is close to what I run. Yep, I am. He's a super nice guy and I've ridden with him a few times and had him ride along with me. And by riding with him I realize how far I am from being a great driver. So don't take my "miatas are slower than me" comment the wrong way.

He's a freaking monster, without a doubt one of the top drivers in the country. I come from a huge Porsche family and have had a lot of experience w/ the Porsche "stereotype" guys, so sorry I didn't mean to jump on you if it seemed like that. 2:15-16 is pretty damn quick in a Cayman S, what tires were you running?

I was going to say more in the mid-upper 20's for spec miatas lol, but they have low 100's HP wise and VIR is undoubtedly a HP track.

[bigjae1976]

Really? I see some later model miatas which look stock at the track.

Trust me, I was in my 330 and I was shocked to see an f'ing miata on my ass. Not sure what happened, if it was traffic, but I had to point him by. Definitely the low point of my driving career thus far.

My excuse is I just got back to the US and started driving again. And it hasn't happened since.

A close second was getting passed by a Kia Forte in Korea...but I owned his ass a lap later and then lapped him.

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by Sauce

He's a freaking monster, without a doubt one of the top drivers in the country. I come from a huge Porsche family and have had a lot of experience w/ the Porsche "stereotype" guys, so sorry I didn't mean to jump on you if it seemed like that. 2:15-16 is pretty damn quick in a Cayman S, what tires were you running?

I was going to say more in the mid-upper 20's for spec miatas lol, but they have low 100's HP wise and VIR is undoubtedly a HP track.

Looks like the lap record is 2:20.4, so slower but not a lot slower. Nah, I didn't take it that way no worries. Feel like I've thread jacked as it is talking about my times etc. too much, taking it to PM.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Really? I see some later model miatas which look stock at the track.

Trust me, I was in my 330 and I was shocked to see an f'ing miata on my ass. Not sure what happened, if it was traffic, but I had to point him by. Definitely the low point of my driving career thus far.

My excuse is I just got back to the US and started driving again. And it hasn't happened since.

A close second was getting passed by a Kia Forte in Korea...but I owned his ass a lap later and then lapped him.

If your seeing Miatas in the higher groups I can almost assure you there are some hidden tricks under its skin, but you never know! The cool thing about miatas is that the spec series are pretty regulated, so guys find the weirdest/coolest ways at becoming faster. The low HP/weight of miatas can lead those guys to take some seriously weird lines. Never follow one!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sauce

If your seeing Miatas in the higher groups I can almost assure you there are some hidden tricks under its skin, but you never know! The cool thing about miatas is that the spec series are pretty regulated, so guys find the weirdest/coolest ways at becoming faster. The low HP/weight of miatas can lead those guys to take some seriously weird lines. Never follow one!

Nah, this was in a lower level group. It was a pretty good driver just tooling around with the noobs.

[klammer]

Well, just to keep the derailment going I run with a group that specializes in spec miatas, have driven one (hated it, but will try again), and yes, they cannot hang with our cars. They are always out there and yes they are predominantly in the advance group or are instructors, but remember, they are RACERS, not just weekend warriors like me/us...

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by OC3

Tracking E9x M3's is indeed expensive. Spent enough in 13 months to have bought & track-prep'd a S2k... :I

Curious to know what these expenses entail. Brakes?, pushing fluids?, tires?

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

And regarding slow cars passing everyone, duh it is the driver mod. A miata is not a fast car.

Thing runs a 2:36 at road america. Have never seen an E90 M beat high 2:48's, even with mods.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Curious to know what these expenses entail. Brakes?, pushing fluids?, tires?

The biggest expenses for me are tires, brake pads and fuel. So yes the tires are a bit more expensive on the E92. I swore to myself I would keep the car stock, the only mods I have done are to reduce cost: camber plates, 18" set of square wheels and tires and el-cheepo Hawk HP+ pads. I had the mod bug in the past, and that can become very expensive.

As others have said, with a newer M3, there is always the risk of totaling a more expensive car.

So I guess it goes back to the original point of the thread, the best part of the car to mod to improve lap times is the one between the seat and the steering wheel .

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

1. Buy a nice car.
2. Take it to the track to drive it like it was meant to be driven.
3. Gets hooked.
4. Gain more and more skill.
5. Realize running a newer car is VERY expensive.
6. Buys a miata to save money.

The organization I drive with goes Green - Blue - Yellow - Red. I think by the time most make it to Yellow, you realize you need seats and/or harnesses. Again, most are not willing to turn a newer model car into a track only car. So that is when they would buy something like an E36.

Why do you think I was researching ZHP's on you tube, before I made this post.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

So I guess it goes back to the original point of the thread, the best part of the car to mod to improve lap times is the one between the seat and the steering wheel .

My original point was a chasiss design comparison, not a measuring contest, that some are getting excited by.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by klammer

, but remember, they are RACERS, not just weekend warriors like me/us...

No worries, you can my threads anytime brother!

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

My original point was a chasiss design comparison, not a measuring contest, that some are getting excited by.

No. There is not much of a comparison between a stock 330 and a stock E92 m3. You created a misleading thread, "Stock" 330 turned out to be pretty modded, and the biggest factor is the driver. The guys you posted videos of even said that.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by klammer

Well, just to keep the derailment going I run with a group that specializes in spec miatas, have driven one (hated it, but will try again), and yes, they cannot hang with our cars. They are always out there and yes they are predominantly in the advance group or are instructors, but remember, they are RACERS, not just weekend warriors like me/us...

As if any thread ever stays on topic..

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Curious to know what these expenses entail. Brakes?, pushing fluids?, tires?

My expenses over 13 months and 31 track days entail 5 sets of tires (OE PS2, PSS, AD08, 2 sets of R-S3), repairing bent ZCP wheels, 18x10 Apex wheels, Porterfield pads/SS lines/Motul fluid, which were later upgraded to Brembo BBK/Endless pads, GC suspension (sleeve kit over ZCP dampers, plus camber plates, etc).

Several alignments, a corner balance, countless tire rotations & flips. 6 oil changes, 2 diff fluid change and 1 DCT trans fluid change. Power steering fluid flush. etc. Tool costs such as torque wrench, 17mm socket, etc.

Helmet, 2 video cams, HPDE signup fees (averages around.. $150 per event in SoCal), track entrance fees, gas (6~7 mpg on the tracks ), food, lodging. EZ-Up. Occassional rental cost of on-track garages.

I haven't so far gone as far as installing roll cage, Recaros, 6-point harness, aero kit, etc. But, then again, I don't plan on pushing things to the point where I'd need those things.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

I understand I'm wearing the engine and trans faster than a street only car. I had a grand-am engineer tell me that they leave the engine internals alone in their E92 M3 racecars even in classes they are allowed to change stuff because the motor is, in his words, bulletproof. My racecar's first engine had 122k on it before it let go, and I expect this motor to do the same. Transmission, not sure yet.

This is what I was worried about the most, although our auto is pretty stout, I don't want issues until well after 150K. I've flushed my tranny so many times, the fluid is now crystal clear! The guys at my local indy shop had me take a look at it, when I flushed it last, just so I would stop doing it, cuz the fluid was clear enough to drink.

The E90 M3 DCT on the other hand, worries me, cuz owners aren't flushing them cuz of the stealership scare tactics.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

... As others have said, with a newer M3, there is always the risk of totaling a more expensive car...

Yep. As much as I enjoy tracking E90 M3, I'd be going balls to the wall all the time if I was tracking more of a disposable car like.. (moderately-mod'd) S2k or a Miata ($15k or $10k, respectively).

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

... So I guess it goes back to the original point of the thread, the best part of the car to mod to improve lap times is the one between the seat and the steering wheel .

This is true, but it takes a long while to see the results - i.e. after you reach a certain level, you're basically fighting to improve 1/2 a second. Whereas, I've seen people come out w/ a aero kit or a better set of tires and suddenly shave 3 seconds. It's the same driver.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Sauce

If your seeing Miatas in the higher groups I can almost assure you there are some hidden tricks under its skin, but you never know! The cool thing about miatas is that the spec series are pretty regulated, so guys find the weirdest/coolest ways at becoming faster. The low HP/weight of miatas can lead those guys to take some seriously weird lines. Never follow one!

Heh, yeah, I don't think I've seen one stock Miatas in higher groups. Seen a couple of Miatas just blow by M3's on front straightaways like M3 was standing still.

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

This is what I was worried about the most, although our auto is pretty stout, I don't want issues until well after 150K. I've flushed my tranny so many times, the fluid is now crystal clear! The guys at my local indy shop had me take a look at it, when I flushed it last, just so I would stop doing it, cuz the fluid was clear enough to drink.

The E90 M3 DCT on the other hand, worries me, cuz owners aren't flushing them cuz of the stealership scare tactics.

I'll admit I am not confident that the trans will hold up without repair for thousands of track miles and many street miles. But the auto is dramatically different from the DCT too. According to the DCT fluid analysis done on a couple of E92 M3 track cars the fluid is pretty new after ~30k miles and a lot of track time.

In all likelihood the clutches will wear out before the fluid, and of course clutches are a wear item whether it's 6MT or 7DCT.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

No worries, you can my threads anytime brother!

and just for clarification, I posted a video a while back of me running a 2:44 in traffic at RA (not even my best lap) and one of the traffic was YOU : Am thoroughly convinced I can break into the 2:30's this year as have at least 2 possibly 3 weekends at Road America this year. Also, the winner of last years Spec Miata Championship at Road America was a 2:43.89... That was the national championship winning time and I believe new lap record for a SM there.