Cool Carbon vs. Hawk HPS

[montreal red]

Originally Posted by jml

Let me just set the tone with this. You are temping fate running HP+ pads. It is a terrible track pad. The MOT (Maximum operating temp) is less that 1000F (similar to OEM), and the friction curve drops like a rock - giving you very little warning of total loss of braking. Infiniti/Nissan made the same mistake, and easy to find references to C&D crashing a 370z due to this issue.

Why people think the HP+ is good is because it has a relative (to OEM) high friction coef - so it bites well and feels more powerful. The moment you learn how to drive the car at 9/10ths - or more likely make a mistake and need the headroom of your braking system to save you, you will be in trouble. You're better off with OEM, which has a progressive, predictable loss of friction at high temps, or moving to something with a higher MOT, like a true race pad.

Think of brakes like a seatbelt - it's part of the safety equipment. You are playing with your life, and it's easy to remove risk associated with brake failure by manning up and spending the time and $ to run a real race pad.

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

I have to disagree with totaly on the HP+'s.I have used them for 2&1/2 seasons with over 25 events with no great issues.Yes they do fade but it is a very progressive action that be felt through the brake pedal and smell when the pads are starting to overheat.I have never been suprised by a lack of retardation and I am usually one of the fast guys and I run at tracks where hard braking is required a few times a lap from speeds as high as 225 kph.
I would run a full race pad if it was less of a hassle to change pads when I am changing back to my street tires but I know a full race pad will just destroy my rotors when they are cold on the street.The HP + is far from being a dangerous pad that you state and works very much as its being marketed.

well i have been running hawk HP+ pads for the past 3 months. i have bout 5 track days on them and my track sessions are usually 20 to 30 mins long. i have not experienced any fading except for one of the track days, which was a very hot day and i was driving particularly hard. before i started to feel the pedal get soft, i smelled the pads overheating already so i backed off and pitted out to cool down. since i pitted, i didnt allow the pads to fade but this smell only came about 25 mins into a 30 min lapping session so i really didnt miss out on a lot of track time. the other sessions on that day went smoothly.

[M3V8Driver]

Hmmm, this has me curious. There's nothing broken. There's really no weight to the sensor at all, so I doubt that was throwing anything off. And like I said, when reinstalled the OEM pads and plugged the sensors back in after the weekend was over, no warning lights. In fact, I was getting two warnings; 1) pads, and 2) tire pressures (since I was running track wheel/tire setup with no TPMS).

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by M3V8Driver

Hmmm, this has me curious. There's nothing broken. There's really no weight to the sensor at all, so I doubt that was throwing anything off. And like I said, when reinstalled the OEM pads and plugged the sensors back in after the weekend was over, no warning lights. In fact, I was getting two warnings; 1) pads, and 2) tire pressures (since I was running track wheel/tire setup with no TPMS).

If you had the sensors unplugged from the car,you would get the warning as the circuit is not complete.What I am doing is leaving the sensor plugged into the car but not in the pads,which is why the sensor needs to be tied up so it does break and cause the warning.

[drivendriver]

On the subject of intermediate brake pads ... I was at Summit Point today. For the first time I used Ferodo DS2500's and Bridgestone RE-11's on the track.

I bedded the pads on the way to the track this morning, or at least I thought I did. I probably didn't spend enough time on bedding, because two laps into the first session, the pads started smelling and the pedal became mushy. Fortunately, since those were my first two laps, I was taking it easy. After that, the pads quickly improved and performed well for most of the rest of the day. In my last session, I decided to push harder in the main straight, and the pads became smelly after braking for turn 1. But the pedal remained firm and, except for the incident in the very first session, I was never really surprised (which happened a few times with the stock pads).

The DS2500's have less initial bite than the stock pads, but better modulation, especially when you get close to ABS engagement. In terms of friction, I don't think they are superior to the stock pads. They probably won't shorten your braking distances, if that's what you're after. But they do take heat better than the stock pads, give you more warning signs of fading, and offer better modulation. Also, they leave less deposits on the rotors. I don't have brake shudder tonight, which I always get with the stock pads. The DS2500's work well in the street too. They occasionally squealed at very low speeds before bedding, but never to the point of startling pedestrians. Overall, I think they're pretty good dual-duty pads if you bed them properly, if you don't expect too much in terms of friction and braking distance, and if you know how to manage your brakes.

Concerning the tires, the RE-11's never became greasy, even though it was very hot today. In similar conditions last year, the stock PS2's became very greasy. Thanks to the stiffer sidewall, the RE-11's don't roll under as much as the PS2's. They are communicative and squeal just as much, or maybe even more, than the PS2's. In terms of pure grip, though, they are not in the same class as R-compounds. They're still street tires. I didn't time myself today, but I don't think my lap times improved a lot compared to last year.

Overall I think this is a pretty good dual-duty set-up for someone who doesn't want to swap pads before and after each event, and who doesn't want to have a second set of wheels and tires for the track.

[jml]

Originally Posted by montreal red

well i have been running hawk HP+ pads for the past 3 months. i have bout 5 track days on them and my track sessions are usually 20 to 30 mins long. i have not experienced any fading except for one of the track days, which was a very hot day and i was driving particularly hard. before i started to feel the pedal get soft, i smelled the pads overheating already so i backed off and pitted out to cool down. since i pitted, i didnt allow the pads to fade but this smell only came about 25 mins into a 30 min lapping session so i really didnt miss out on a lot of track time. the other sessions on that day went smoothly.

Glad you are safe, smart that you were watching the car very closely and shut it down when things did not feel right. Just because you are not dead does not mean running a street pad with <1000F MOT at a race track is a good idea. There is very little headroom in this pad, it was not engineered to be a track pad. While you are having good luck now, a) I don't see them as better than OEM, in fact they are noisier, and b) you are tempting fate with something completely within your control. You may never experience a fade induced loss of braking power that results in tears, but if you do with these pads, you are going to feel silly.

[kitw]

Originally Posted by jml

Glad you are safe, smart that you were watching the car very closely and shut it down when things did not feel right. Just because you are not dead does not mean running a street pad with <1000F MOT at a race track is a good idea. There is very little headroom in this pad, it was not engineered to be a track pad. While you are having good luck now, a) I don't see them as better than OEM, in fact they are noisier, and b) you are tempting fate with something completely within your control. You may never experience a fade induced loss of braking power that results in tears, but if you do with these pads, you are going to feel silly.

To back up what jml said... Hawk HP+ got my Supercharged E36 REALLY dirty in turn 2 at Laguna. They feel like awesome pads, until they basically fail. They really are an AutoX compound, they have better initial bite than stock, but they are NOT made to take high temperatures.

The reality is that if you aren't seeing them fade, you aren't going that fast. After I got faster, I tried the HP+ again and I could get them to fade at will. (this is running not fast times, like 2:08s at Thunderhill with street tires and about 330whp/3150 lbs)

In a heavier car, you are really just asking for an off track excursion. I'd rather run on stock pads than HP+, since even if you drastically overheat stock pads, they stay relatively healthy once they've cooled.

If that doesn't convince you... Check out the pic I have of what happens when you overheat an HP+. (the pad material disintegrates and you get dirty.)

The Cool Carbons are the closest I've seen to a true compromise pad and it's going to mean driving slower than real race pads. Nothing you can do about it, there just aren't pads that work at the 1200+ degree range, while being rotor friendly, dust free and squeal free for street use.

I really like the PFC 01, the Pagid RS14 (although they wear very quickly if you overheat them) and the Hawk HT14/HT10 combo, although they tend to be harder on rotors.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by kitw

To back up what jml said... Hawk HP+ got my Supercharged E36 REALLY dirty in turn 2 at Laguna. They feel like awesome pads, until they basically fail. They really are an AutoX compound, they have better initial bite than stock, but they are NOT made to take high temperatures.

The reality is that if you aren't seeing them fade, you aren't going that fast. After I got faster, I tried the HP+ again and I could get them to fade at will. (this is running not fast times, like 2:08s at Thunderhill with street tires and about 330whp/3150 lbs)

In a heavier car, you are really just asking for an off track excursion. I'd rather run on stock pads than HP+, since even if you drastically overheat stock pads, they stay relatively healthy once they've cooled.

If that doesn't convince you... Check out the pic I have of what happens when you overheat an HP+. (the pad material disintegrates and you get dirty.)

The Cool Carbons are the closest I've seen to a true compromise pad and it's going to mean driving slower than real race pads. Nothing you can do about it, there just aren't pads that work at the 1200+ degree range, while being rotor friendly, dust free and squeal free for street use.

I really like the PFC 01, the Pagid RS14 (although they wear very quickly if you overheat them) and the Hawk HT14/HT10 combo, although they tend to be harder on rotors.

I have had the same issues with PFC's where I have put the piston through the backing plate.It usually happens when the pad gets worn and I do not run any track pad under 60% left to avoid this.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by jml

Glad you are safe, smart that you were watching the car very closely and shut it down when things did not feel right. Just because you are not dead does not mean running a street pad with <1000F MOT at a race track is a good idea. There is very little headroom in this pad, it was not engineered to be a track pad. While you are having good luck now, a) I don't see them as better than OEM, in fact they are noisier, and b) you are tempting fate with something completely within your control. You may never experience a fade induced loss of braking power that results in tears, but if you do with these pads, you are going to feel silly.

The Hawk HP+'s are a lot better than the stock pads as they have a lot better feel & are a lot better on the pad deposit issue.
Learning the skills to manage the brakes that you have on the car should be part of Advanced driver training as much as learning proper lines.If you drive like a "Rock Ape"and stand on the brakes every brake cycle on track you will have problems.Suprise!Would I like better braking?Of course I would, but in the meantime I will live with what I have and not have any real problems by managing their use within the brakes systems capabilities.

[von_zoom]

I have been following this fairly closely, as I am still considering "retracking" my E92 on a somewhat regular basis, which means, wheels, R Comps, and brakes. I run at least one event a month, and sometimes two. On my current track car, 3620 lbs with me and half a tank of gas, a 525i, modified E36 M3 270 hp,and set up for the track, I run Hawk Gold HT 10 Race Pads, front and back on a M5 brake system. I have super stopping power, no fade, and out braking most cars in the advance and instructor classes I run in, and in three years, have had absolutely no problems what so ever. I drive the car to/from the track, 140 miles each way, an occasional small amount of local driving, and never change the pads. Yea, they squeak, but so what. I would probably try the HT10s (or simular) on the E92, except for Lucid's experience with them. Thus, jury is still out on what to do with the E92.
vz

[saildoc]

I have the same concerns, starting to bring my car to HPDE's but I do not want to deal the melted brake pads or even a crash from loss of brakes. After doing a lot of reading it seems that there is no such thing as an effective track pad that you can live with on the street-too much noise, poor cold braking performance and excessive rotor wear. So I went with Carbotech pads http://www.ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp which I will install this weekend along with Ate Blue fluid. I will just take the pads off in a few weeks when I am done with HPDE's for this year. Good luck.

[garek]

Originally Posted by saildoc

I have the same concerns, starting to bring my car to HPDE's but I do not want to deal the melted brake pads or even a crash from loss of brakes. After doing a lot of reading it seems that there is no such thing as an effective track pad that you can live with on the street-too much noise, poor cold braking performance and excessive rotor wear. So I went with Carbotech pads http://www.ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp which I will install this weekend along with Ate Blue fluid. I will just take the pads off in a few weeks when I am done with HPDE's for this year. Good luck.

I've also gone with carbotech pads for track days. They're great for the track. Great bite, and not much fade.

It sounds like you're going to be doing some street driving with them. Just be ready, they squeal like pigs.

[Nine]

HP+ pads are very entry level track pads, with their biggest benefit being the price.

[kitw]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

The Hawk HP+'s are a lot better than the stock pads as they have a lot better feel & are a lot better on the pad deposit issue..

Again, this is what is dangerous about them. When they puke, they puke and there is very little warning, you just don't slow down. It really sucks and gets your dirty at best and is dangerous at worst. I really would recommend against these pads on track.

[ShadeD1]

I'm using Performance Friction "Z" rated pads and am quite happy with them after 5 track events. Pad wear on the fronts and rears is at less than half, rotors in good shape, some squeal for a week or so after an event but pretty quite after that. Big improvement over stock pads (I used up half a set of those in one event) fading is much improved but still occurs (to a lesser degree). My next upgrade will be PF rotors on the fronts.

[Bubbles]

I'm switching from Cool Carbon to Pagids.

Cool carbons performed great but would start to fade after a few laps. Of course it's 100F and a on very fast with some brake heavy turns. Cool carbons provide plenty of warning prior to losing complete effectiveness. A cool down between sessions 45min to 1 hour sessions was sufficient to get braking performance back. I hope the Pagids will provide a bit more time, otherwise I'll go back to the $200/set Cool Carbons.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by kitw

Again, this is what is dangerous about them. When they puke, they puke and there is very little warning, you just don't slow down. It really sucks and gets your dirty at best and is dangerous at worst. I really would recommend against these pads on track.

I am quite confused about the dangerous part?Yes they are not a full out track pad so they do fade when used hard for a few laps.When they do get hot & fade they give you lots of warning and you back off a bit and they come right back.What is dangerous about a pad that gives lots of warning & keeps working

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by saildoc

I have the same concerns, starting to bring my car to HPDE's but I do not want to deal the melted brake pads or even a crash from loss of brakes. After doing a lot of reading it seems that there is no such thing as an effective track pad that you can live with on the street-too much noise, poor cold braking performance and excessive rotor wear. So I went with Carbotech pads http://www.ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp which I will install this weekend along with Ate Blue fluid. I will just take the pads off in a few weeks when I am done with HPDE's for this year. Good luck.

Street pads and tracks pads are designed for different purposes and different operating temperatures.

[kitw]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

I am quite confused about the dangerous part?Yes they are not a full out track pad so they do fade when used hard for a few laps.When they do get hot & fade they give you lots of warning and you back off a bit and they come right back.What is dangerous about a pad that gives lots of warning & keeps working

I've personally gotten real dirty from a set of HP+ that faded completely away in one stop. Started to stop and then stopped stopping, and completely puked the pad out. See above pics. When you overheat them, Bad Things happen.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by kitw

I've personally gotten real dirty from a set of HP+ that faded completely away in one stop. Started to stop and then stopped stopping, and completely puked the pad out. See above pics. When you overheat them, Bad Things happen.

On what car?I do not see any pictures.

[jml]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

The Hawk HP+'s are a lot better than the stock pads as they have a lot better feel & are a lot better on the pad deposit issue.
Learning the skills to manage the brakes that you have on the car should be part of Advanced driver training as much as learning proper lines.If you drive like a "Rock Ape"and stand on the brakes every brake cycle on track you will have problems.Suprise!Would I like better braking?Of course I would, but in the meantime I will live with what I have and not have any real problems by managing their use within the brakes systems capabilities.

I see where you are coming from. My point is that brakes are a safety feature, not a performance feature. Why wear seat belts when you can clearly avoid the crash by slowing down or turning the wheel?

As to managing your brakes, agreed - there is a big difference between being an rock ape and driving very very fast. But, I will say this, I refuse to get into a student's car who thinks they have upgraded brakes with HP+ or HPS pads. My life is on the line, so my choice. Has happened more than once at the PCA club events I work at.

Here is the difference. I used to run HP+ pads as street pads in my E46M with stock calipers. I would swap them out for DTC70s or SpecVRs for the track. My beeding procedure for the HP+ could easily and accidentally get them to fade - about 3 very hard stops from 80mph, and once they started to fade, I needed to use the transmission to slow the car. It was nearly impossible to get the DTC70 to do anything but get better (or even bed for that matter)....