From M3 to GT3 - Downsides and Upsides

[attila]

Originally Posted by Dartanium

Another question, would a 997.2 GT3 RS be an acceptable weekend car just as much as a regular GT3?

The answer is Yes. It is not that different in terms of comfort.
I am relly thinking about the GT3RS, however all the dealerships I contacted want to charge a hefty, about $20K over sticker on the RS models. The regular GT3 sells here 1-2% below sticker. Not much. The truecar.com values are unfortunately missleading about the GT3.

[devo]

Originally Posted by PKE90

Worlds, galaxies? Can't agree. Have you driven all three extensively on the road and track? If so, I defer to you. If not, I'd suggest a couple of planets different but no more. Porsche is a master at incremental gains on a 45 year+ unchanged fundamental design. I recently swapped with a friend who has a 84 930 with a 3.6L (~300hp) engine at Monticello. After we did a couple of laps, he in my 6 GT3, me in his 84, we were amazed at how similar the cars drove. Of course the 20 year more advanced car was better but you'd be amazed at the nuances. Haven't driven a 7.2 GT3 but I have driven the 7.1 on the track and street. It was just that...incrementally better in all facets than my 6 GT3 but not far removed. Much better looking though, no doubt.

Here's a couple data points (Nuerburgring lap times per Sport Auto magazine of Germany):

- 996 GT3: 7min 54sec
- 996 GT3 RS: 7:47
- 997.1 GT3: 7:48
- 997.1 GT3 RS: 7:48 (why Porsche got serious with the the 997.2 RS)
- 997.2 GT3: 7:40
- 997.2 GT3 RS: 7:33 (Carrera GT: 7:32; 997.1 GT2: 7:33)

So between the 996 GT3 and the 997.2 GT3 lie 14 seconds - a ton for a professional in a race, no doubt, but expressed in percent it is only 3% different...not meaningful for us amateurs.

I don't have the E92 M3's numbers in front of me but I think it was a tick above 8m, somewhere around 8:05 I think.

I am aware of all of the track numbers.

I was referring more to the street diferences between the two and a half generations. I don't believe the 996 had PSM nor TC, the 997.1 only had TC and the .2 has PSM and TC. The .2's suspension and much, much improved torque over the 996 is quite different and very much improved to me. Those are just two itmes, there are many more.

Agreed that these deltas are very small for the average driver, however, we must consider them when making any comparison. A 14 sec. difference in an apple to apple comparison is huge.

I don't really judge my cars on their track times. It's certainly good info but that's about it.

You're right, the M was 8:05.

[elh0102]

Originally Posted by Dartanium

Another question, would a 997.2 GT3 RS be an acceptable weekend car just as much as a regular GT3?

Yes, but, so would a Sprint Cup car if one is so inclined.

[PKE90]

Originally Posted by devo

I am aware of all of the track numbers.

I was referring more to the street diferences between the two and a half generations. I don't believe the 996 had PSM nor TC, the 997.1 only had TC and the .2 has PSM and TC. The .2's suspension and much, much improved torque over the 996 is quite different and very much improved to me. Those are just two itmes, there are many more.

Agreed that these deltas are very small for the average driver, however, we must consider them when making any comparison. A 14 sec. difference in an apple to apple comparison is huge.

I don't really judge my cars on their track times. It's certainly good info but that's about it.

You're right, the M was 8:05.

You are correct, the 996 has no electronic aids other than the ABS and it is comparatively light on torque...although still stunningly fast and responsive...as, by the way, is the M3. I don't want to come across as a no-compromises defender of my 996. As much as I love it, if I had permission from the wife, I'd get a new RS in a second. That is, after I posted the kids on ebay to see what I could get for them!

[devo]

Originally Posted by elh0102

Yes, but, so would a Sprint Cup car if one is so inclined.

An RS is just as street friendly as the GT3. Again, either is fine for dd duty.

[Dartanium]

Thanks for the replies, just as more motivation to move the thread along, here is what I saw at my local dealership

Sold, of course. It is the basically the same physical dimensions as a 997.2 widebody but not sure if it's the wheels offset, or the paint or something else, it seems quite bit wider than c4/c4s models.

[skim]

Originally Posted by attila

The answer is Yes. It is not that different in terms of comfort.
I am relly thinking about the GT3RS, however all the dealerships I contacted want to charge a hefty, about $20K over sticker on the RS models. The regular GT3 sells here 1-2% below sticker. Not much. The truecar.com values are unfortunately missleading about the GT3.

Call around more. I got offered at MSRP at 2 dealers, but I don't want to sell both my cars yet so I didn't take it. But when you call, make sure to ask if it's already been spec'ed or you can spec it. For the RS, get it the way you exactly want it, with build time of about 2 months.
If you want, I can route you to the sales guy who will get you at MSRP, at least he said he would to me.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Dartanium

Thanks for the replies, just as more motivation to move the thread along, here is what I saw at my local dealership

Sold, of course. It is the basically the same physical dimensions as a 997.2 widebody but not sure if it's the wheels offset, or the paint or something else, it seems quite bit wider than c4/c4s models.

The wide body rear is the same. The front does have a wider track and the obvious fender flares. Of course, the 325mm rear tires and 245mm fronts help to give the car a wider look.

[devo]

Originally Posted by skim

Call around more. I got offered at MSRP at 2 dealers, but I don't want to sell both my cars yet so I didn't take it. But when you call, make sure to ask if it's already been spec'ed or you can spec it. For the RS, get it the way you exactly want it, with build time of about 2 months.
If you want, I can route you to the sales guy who will get you at MSRP, at least he said he would to me.

There aren't very many, if any, 2010s that are still changeable. If so, they are few and time is ticking. And, there won't be very many 2011s produced. That'll be it when the 2011s are done until the 991 comes out in about 3-4years.

[330CIZHP]

Actually, I have read the RS is usually not the same chassis as a regular GT3. The RS usually uses the wider rear CS4 platform while the regular GT3 uses the standard CS platform.

Originally Posted by devo

The wide body rear is the same. The front does have a wider track and the obvious fender flares. Of course, the 325mm rear tires and 245mm fronts help to give the car a wider look.

[JMD0977]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Actually, I have read the RS is usually not the same chassis as a regular GT3. The RS usually uses the wider rear CS4 platform while the regular GT3 uses the standard CS platform.

Carreras and GT3= narrow body
Turbos, GT3 RS, and GT2= wide body

The wide body is 44 mm wider in the rear, and now, for the first time, 26mm wider in the front (only for the GT3RS and future GT2/RS). The turbo is only wider in the rear only.

[330CIZHP]

I understand what you are saying.

However, the standard GT3 and GT3 RS do not use the same chassis like I mentioned above. The GT3 RS uses the C4 platform, which is wider than the standard C4 platform that is used by GT3 and all the other none-C4 models:

Here is one of my sources:

"Unlike the GT3, the RS is built on the body and chasis of the 911 Carrera 4 and Turbo, and accordingly has a wider rear track for better cornering characteristics on the track."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911

Originally Posted by JMD0977

Carreras and GT3= narrow body
Turbos, GT3 RS, and GT2= wide body

The wide body is 44 mm wider in the rear, and now, for the first time, 26mm wider in the front (only for the GT3RS and future GT2/RS). The turbo is only wider in the rear only.

[devo]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Actually, I have read the RS is usually not the same chassis as a regular GT3. The RS usually uses the wider rear CS4 platform while the regular GT3 uses the standard CS platform.

I know that the RS has a wide body and only comes in a wide body. It uses the C4 chassis width whether the C4 is a S or not; not a "CS4" as you state; pardon if that was a typo on your part.

I was stating above that the RS is the same width as the C4(S); a reference was made to the C4S and I was responding to that. Dartanium stated that "it is basically the same dimensions as the 997.2 wide body", which is true except that it is exactly the same width as the C4(S) 997.2 and .1 (2005-2011) wide body.

My point again was that although the RS shares the same chassis width (as the C4) it may be in part the massive tires that make it look even wider. My GT3 as well as JMD0977's do not have the same size RS tires. GT3: 305/235, RS: 325/245.

Everything JMD0977 states above is accurate, only to add that the C4(S) Carrera has the same wider rear body as the turbo, GT2 and RS; without the wider track front of the .2 RS and .2 GT2 RS.

[devo]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

I understand what you are saying.

However, the standard GT3 and GT3 RS do not use the same chassis like I mentioned above. The GT3 RS uses the C4 platform, which is wider than the standard C4 platform that is used by GT3 and all the other none-C4 models:

Here is one of my sources:

"Unlike the GT3, the RS is built on the body and chasis of the 911 Carrera 4 and Turbo, and accordingly has a wider rear track for better cornering characteristics on the track."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911

The C4, as you mention above, comes in only one width. The only "standard" C4 platform IS the C4 as it is the base C4. The C4S is the higher performance C4. Each share the same platform. The 4 denotes AWD and the 2 denotes rear drive only. Hence a C2 would be the standard rear drive Carrera as would the C4 be the standard AWD Carrera. The S denotes the higher performance version of each respective model. So a C2S is that model as is the C4S, same goes for the turbo S. Again, all C4's too include the S are wide bodies and all C2's too include the S are narrow bodies. All RS's, turbo(S)'s, too include the GT2 and C4(S)'s share the same width rear wide body.

You are misinterpreting Porsche's statement. Porsche does not say nor suggest that the RS is built on a chassis wider than the C4. They say "accordingly it has a wider track" as it (RS) would when using the C4 chassis.

This post and the one above are facts. I am not guessing.

[JMD0977]

I didn't know there was a narrow body and wide body Carreras.... I thought all Carreras were narrow bodies....

[devo]

Originally Posted by JMD0977

I didn't know there was a narrow body and wide body Carreras.... I thought all Carreras were narrow bodies....

That because you only buy wikedly fast cars, lol!

[FStop7]

Just FYI, the regular 2010 GT3 (not the RS) also uses part of the floorpan from the C4 body. It is not a widebody car, but they used that floorpan for a couple of reasons. One of them being is that the forward driveshaft tunnel is where they mount the front end lift system. I think it's also more rigid. I have an article about it from one of the UK based Porsche mags.

So in short, the GT3 is a narrow body, but it does use some chassis pieces from the wide body cars.


The GT3 RS is based on the widebody C4 platform. But it is also slightly wider than the C4 in front. If you look at the RS you can see it has additional front fender flares.

This applies to the 2010+ GT3 / GT3 RS. I don't know about the 2007-2009 versions.

[devo]

Originally Posted by FStop7

Just FYI, the regular 2010 GT3 (not the RS) also uses part of the floorpan from the C4 body. It is not a widebody car, but they used that floorpan for a couple of reasons. One of them being is that the forward driveshaft tunnel is where they mount the front end lift system. I think it's also more rigid. I have an article about it from one of the UK based Porsche mags.

So in short, the GT3 is a narrow body, but it does use some chassis pieces from the wide body cars.

The GT3 RS is based on the widebody C4 platform. But it is also slightly wider than the C4 in front. If you look at the RS you can see it has additional front fender flares.

This applies to the 2010+ GT3 / GT3 RS. I don't know about the 2007-2009 versions.

The wider front does not apply to the 2010/2011 GT3.

Yes, the GT3 .1 and .2 (narrow body) does use some of the C4 chassis to achieve a higher level of rigidity than the regular C2(S), which does not use any of the C4 chassis. The GT3's exterior metal is only as wide as a narrow body C2(S).

The .2 RS and .2 GT2 RS, as I and JMD0977 stated above, do have a wider tracks at the front. The front of the body, however, is only wider by the measure of the front wheel aches. The wheel arches are in place to cover the wheels/tires from the wider track of course.

The 2007 and 2008 (for the USA, 2009 Euro and possibly RoW) GT3/RS's do not have a wider front track. It is only the 2010/2011 (.2s) GT3/RSs and .2 GT2 RSs that do.

[JMD0977]

Originally Posted by devo

That because you only buy wikedly fast cars, lol!

My 2010 GT3 is my first Porsche

[ericlikescars]

I am a true die hard BMW enthusiast but I would have to say, my dream stable would be a nice subtle DD with a GT3 to play. If I couldn't do that I would definitely do the BMW. I hope to get into a GT3 one day, I've always wanted a P car and that GT3 is the one that really gets my blood flowing. Love it.

[xrayos]

simple answer. M3 4dr for DD and GT3 or GT3RS for the weekends.

[hqsntr]

I'm a new member, 2nd post here, and I can speak to this from experience. Last August, I traded in my 2008 997 Turbo for my E92 M3. The Turbo was my 4th newly purchased Porsche, and I'm not sure there will be a 5th. Needless to say friends thought I was nuts, until they've driven my post Active Autowerke car.

Never really connected with my Porsche. Final straw was on the track, at 147mph, when the nearly double the price of the M3 Porsche started to shake a bit and float.

After picking up the car, and breaking it in for a few months, I dropped it off a couple of months ago at Active Autowerke. Let me just say that I couldn't be happier. IMHO, this incarnation of the M3 is just an outstanding all around car.

Recently put it on the same track that caused the Porsche to float, in nearly identical weather (clear, no/low humidity), and the car held the road like a rock.

Don't get me wrong. Porsches are fun to drive, and make lots of torque, but the interiors are dated, and you're not getting the amount of sports car you pay for in the 997. If I drop in Active's supercharger when ready, the M3 becomes a Porsche eater with $30K to spare.