RS5- it's comin' soon

[lucid]

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

Lucid, we can agree here. Most all of us here, except Jet, will not race our cars. However, one of the things that many reviewers of the M3 have said is missing is just that, the driver involvement. In fact, some have felt that the RS4 was the more driver involving car. But that was not the point of this thread. Jet and I have been trying to correct the record and mis impressions about the A5/S5/RS5 chassis. It was said to be fat, heavy ... etc. It will not be and was specifically designed not to be. It has been said that somehow the R8 performance will dictate the upper limits of performance of the RS5. It will not, as they are totally different market segments.

Jet and I would both agree that the M3 has the potential for being an exceptional car. I'd love to have one myself, for dry days on exceptional roads. But, for the first time in M3 history, you have to agree that the M3 has a worthy competitor in the RS4 AND a potential worthy follow-on competitor in the RS5. Trust me, the RS4 involves the driver when pushed. It also signals it's intentions quite well. I know that from experience at Watkins Glen and Lime Rock. At the same time, it's also an exceptionally smooth and comfortable cruising machine, capable of long family trips. And ... my dog loves to ride in the back seat! What more could I want?

From my perspective, the good news is that there is real competition. This is good for every one of us, because BMW, Audi and Merc will respond to the competition with better products than they would have in it's absence. And ... I truly look forward to the day the BMW introduces the M3 CSL in the US, because I truly expect it will be an awesome automobile.

I was under the impression most of the initial reviews favored the M3 when it comes to driver involvement, but maybe that's just how I saw things. I completely agree that the M3 finally has competition in its market segment (RS4, RS5, C63). It will even get more colorful when the IS-F and the GTR also show up.

And, while I'd have to admit I am somewhat biased toward BMW products, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the competing products if I were to be convinced that they will offer me more satisfaction on the road and the track and be as reliable (but boy, on a non-performance related note, Audi has to fix that grill as much as BMW needs to fix the M3 interior!)

This is all good stuff for everyone in the end. I have a feeling things will really heat up with the next generation luxury sport coupe/sedans after the current generation enteries are given a chance to establish themselves and duke it out on the marketplace for 4-5 years. May the best survive!

[RI_RS4]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Evo seems to think it's more involving than the RS4. Will the RS5 be better--I'd hope so.

I think the fact that some reviews favor the M3 and others favor the RS4 shows how well both cars hit their market.

The RS5 should be more involving. But will always have less tendency to oversteer than a RWD car. But it is still possible to push it and the RS4 into oversteer, at very low cost, with some stiffer sway bars.

The Audis will always carry a bit of a weight penalty due to Quattro system. The value of this system is debatable. Certainly in other than dry conditions there is some benefit, though my E46 M3 handles rain just fine. Snow, well, that's another subject.

Yes, there will always be a weight and power loss disadvantage due to Quattro. I'd say you probably have not driven a Quattro system in the rain for any time. The difference between it an any RWD car is like night and day. It's not even close. On track days, non-AWD cars take a terrible beating. On the highway, there's not a road where I loose any confidence in the rain.

Agree, but not sure the CSL will happen in the US unless there is a true champion within BMW.

Unfortunately, I think that might be true. I hope it is not, as I'd love to see CSL's over here. Even though I might not own one, I would certainly appreciate one.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bulletproof

I don't think so. R8 is not on par with the M3. M3 is on par with the RS4. R8 is on par with the 911 and Vantage. Right now the M3 is neck and neck with a two year old RS4

First +1 lucid on your post about the need for car to be the most fun and involving on the street and on the track. From the preliminary reveiws thus far the M3 is the clear winner here. However, since we all like to engage in a "battle of the specs." I get to that. The above is absolutely false. Preliminary braking, acceleration, ring times etc. place the M3 at or exceeding the AM Vantage, Carerra 911S and R8. The RS4 from a pure performance perspective will not be a problem for the M3. Most of the "mini-reviews" that have been in favor of the RS4 or have placed it close to the M3 give it "points" for 4 doors, looks, cost of ownership, wet performance and other totally subjective criteria. When you stick to performance it is crystal clear which car is the winner even without a full test. Last but not least those Audi fans criticising the performance of the M3 on "bad" roads should reconsider your definition of bad. If bad means bumpy, uneven, undulating, etc., again the M3 has been called more comfortable and sure footed in such conditions. If the surface degrades to smooth and dry but with some traction problems again the M3 (despite the AWD) was found to offer better cornering speeds and more ultimate traction. Of course for race like driving in wet or snowy conditons there will not be much of a competition. If you want to or have to buy a performance car for these conditions all I can do is offer my condolences... (unless of course you are a winter rally driver...)

OK last but not least, BMW and Audi and others are always playing leap frog. I won't be suprised if the RS5 if more powerful and faster in many circumstances than the M3, after another cycle it will switch again. Nothing new nor suprising here.

One thing I can say as a real + to Audi is that the RS4 motor was truly revolutionary wheras the M3 motor is clearly evolutionary. BMW is definitely a bit behind even given the typical leap frog pattern here. There is not excuse for the M3 not having the efficiency and performance improvements from DI.

+1 for good competition in this segment, great for all of us!

[southlight]

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

You seem to have a real problem with facts.

Originally Posted by mgdsh

And based on the A4/S4/RS4 line vs A5/S5/RS5 line weights above, there is a difference of about 200 lbs in favor of the 2 door cars.

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

A5/S5/RS5 chassis is a completely new design. It's lighter, better balanced and has a lower CG.

C'mon guys, who has a problem with facts?

Audi's website claims a difference of 69 lbs between S5 and S4! Didn't you read my response? Or did you not want to read it?

Best regards, south

[The CSL]

For the RS5 to offer the performance of the R8, it would need to cost roughly the same, so people didn't buy the RS5 for less, to get more performance. It very well may be the case that it is hamstrung by the R8 being in the line up, which was not a concern for the RS4. Unlike Audi, BMW see the M3 as their best car and therefore, once they've worked on the CSL, the RS5 will really see a tough challenge. How could it not, because Audi haven't made a road car that is as quick on the Nordschleife as the E46 CSL with 358bhp, let alone 420bhp+ the new one will have. Some say these times mean nothing, but as a standardised test of what a car can do, faster is better.

And you know why the CSL punches so far above its station? That perfectly balanced chassis with lower CoG. Well, that isn't going to change for the next CSL.

[Just_me]

I saw the Audi S5 and i give it to Audi, it looks good. S5 look a lot wider than a E92, looks like a larger car, like 6-series.

[esquire]

this thread started out interesting... then got quickly annoying with the almost perfunctory chime-ins by the audi trolls... but at the end of the day this thread is absolutely worthless for one simple reason: neither of these cars are out yet.

to the M3 crew: there's no denying that the S5 will be a considerable performance step up from the S4.

to the Audi crew: don't be so quick to overlook the M3's 0-60 in 4.4 seconds on poor road conditions, and the yet-to-be-reviewed M-DCT transmission, which will shave between .2 and .4 seconds from that time.



feel free to indulge in mindless speculation if it makes you sleep better at night, but right now all anyone has to offer is conjecture . make your arguments when you have the facts. until then, go back to your video game boards arguing about which video game system will be better: playstation 10 or xbox 1080, because your arguments here are just as inane.

- esquire

[devo]

Originally Posted by lucid

Does the RS5 have the same V8 in the RS4? And, what is the A5-line chassis based on?

Sorry if someone else has already posted this but the RS5 is rumored to get a 450 hp/500 ft.lb. twin turbo V8 (Based on the RS4). It might be a little porky and a little pricey, but it will be fast and fun.

[devo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

First +1 lucid on your post about the need for car to be the most fun and involving on the street and on the track. From the preliminary reveiws thus far the M3 is the clear winner here. However, since we all like to engage in a "battle of the specs." I get to that. The above is absolutely false. Preliminary braking, acceleration, ring times etc. place the M3 at or exceeding the AM Vantage, Carerra 911S and R8. The RS4 from a pure performance perspective will not be a problem for the M3. Most of the "mini-reviews" that have been in favor of the RS4 or have placed it close to the M3 give it "points" for 4 doors, looks, cost of ownership, wet performance and other totally subjective criteria. When you stick to performance it is crystal clear which car is the winner even without a full test. Last but not least those Audi fans criticising the performance of the M3 on "bad" roads should reconsider your definition of bad. If bad means bumpy, uneven, undulating, etc., again the M3 has been called more comfortable and sure footed in such conditions. If the surface degrades to smooth and dry but with some traction problems again the M3 (despite the AWD) was found to offer better cornering speeds and more ultimate traction. Of course for race like driving in wet or snowy conditons there will not be much of a competition. If you want to or have to buy a performance car for these conditions all I can do is offer my condolences... (unless of course you are a winter rally driver...)

OK last but not least, BMW and Audi and others are always playing leap frog. I won't be suprised if the RS5 if more powerful and faster in many circumstances than the M3, after another cycle it will switch again. Nothing new nor suprising here.

One thing I can say as a real + to Audi is that the RS4 motor was truly revolutionary wheras the M3 motor is clearly evolutionary. BMW is definitely a bit behind even given the typical leap frog pattern here. There is not excuse for the M3 not having the efficiency and performance improvements from DI.

+1 for good competition in this segment, great for all of us!

I am not trying to stir things up again, but please stop saying that the M's braking peformance is better than the 911S. One test may have revealed a quicker stop. Try repeated runs and look for the road test of the 911S where it posted the best brake time ever at the time. It's pretty simple, the BMW's single pot, brakes are not even in the same league as the 911S. Face reality, PLEASE.

[consolidated]

Now that is it's becoming more clear the M3 will likely trouce the RS4 as a driver's car I'm not surprised to see the debate turn to "wait until the RS5 comes out" and "in the rain, with a gravel strewn road, quattro..." marketing stuff.

I look forward to revisiting this thread in a years time to see how the new cars go against each other head's up.

[aerisolphaln]

Originally Posted by consolidated

Now that is it's becoming more clear the M3 will likely trouce the RS4 as a driver's car ...

You haven't read any of the initial reviews, have you.

[2002 Tii]

I knew this thread would heat things up around here. Its interesting how emotional people become about their favorite car, its almost like defending their kids!
If you ignore the "fan boy", "troll" garbage thrown around too frequently unfortunatly, there were some nice informative posts and commentary.
I believe the RS5 will be priced considerably higher than the RS4 and M3. The question is will Audi equip the S5 with the same drive system as the R8? In which the power supply to the rear wheels is 90% and 10% to the front in dry road conditions. If so, the RS5 will be a truly awsome car with an engine set further back for better weight distribution and about 450 hp in a car that should weight around 3500 lb.
Ideally you'd buy the M3 drive it for a year or two then get the RS5

[BruceWain]

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

The RS5 will more than likely supersede the performance numbers of the R8. First, they are in two totally different market segments. Second, there is another version of the R8 on the horizon with a V10 engine..

The RS5 outperforming it's more exspensive "supercar" for less money, AUDI ....come on."

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

I don't know where you guys get your information, but BMW's competitors are not still in the 1990's, where you seem to think they are. Performance developments do happen outside of Bavaria. Funny thing, Audi introduced DI engines to racing, introduced DI engines into production, and then introduced a high performance DI engine before BMW...

Audi did NOT introduce DI into production, Mercedes did... and guess what, that model was used for racing.
The question is - Where do you get your information from ?
BMW has DI as well... actually their on the secound version of it and about to release the third.

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

You seem to have a real problem with facts. And the fact of the matter is that the RS4 is currently a close match to the M3, and Audi will not sit still. You claim that the new M3 is better than the RS4. Well it damn well better be. By the time it reaches the US market, it will FOLLOW the RS4 by 2 to 2 1/2 years. The RS4 will have been in the US for 2 years before BMW catches up. In that amount of time you should expect the M3 to be light years better. That it is only marginally better is a disappointment....

Where is your proof that the RS4 is a close match to the NEW M3 ?
A few "FIRST DRIVE" articles with no real numbers...

"Audi will not sit still"
I guess you think BMW, Mercedes, Porsche or any other for that matter will.
What does that even mean. What is your point in writing that.
I said it b4 - Audi had to make a V8, awd that had a base price of over $17,000.00 more to be only "marginally" better then the E46M3. I have proof of that !
Do you have proof that the New M3 is only "marginally better then the RS4 ?

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

Audi showed that it could produce a production engine with the same performance as any BMW, and use that same engine across the entire product line. The FSI V8 is a testament to this. In the RS5, Audi will most likely return to it's turbocharged roots, placing that same V8 engine in a more-worthy chassis, and add twin turbos to it. Nothing that BMW currently makes will stand a chance. BMW will again be in FOLLOW mode. Stock the RS5 engine will smoke the M3 S65 engine. But modified, the RS5 engine will dwarf the S65. If you don't think so, you don't know Audi.

Audi made ONE engine with VW money and you think they can keep up with BMW.....lol. Why do you think Audi is putting turbo(s) on that engine ? Because they can't make it pass the 100hp/l mark without them.

Over 100hp/l:
Ferrari
BMW
Honda
Without turbo !

YOU better hope Audi doesn't return to it's turbo roots....lol.
Here you go with the modified vs. stock.
With the right "modifications" any car can "dwarf" another.

BMW never follows/followed Audi.....get your facts straight and be sure of that.

[BruceWain]

Originally Posted by 2002 Tii

I knew this thread would heat things up around here. Its interesting how emotional people become about their favorite car, its almost like defending their kids!
If you ignore the "fan boy", "troll" garbage thrown around too frequently unfortunatly, there were some nice informative posts and commentary.
I believe the RS5 will be priced considerably higher than the RS4 and M3. The question is will Audi equip the S5 with the same drive system as the R8? In which the power supply to the rear wheels is 90% and 10% to the front in dry road conditions. If so, the RS5 will be a truly awsome car with an engine set further back for better weight distribution and about 450 hp in a car that should weight around 3500 lb.
Ideally you'd buy the M3 drive it for a year or two then get the RS5

You don't really believe that the RS5 is going to weigh around 3500lbs do you ?

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by aerisolphaln

You haven't read any of the initial reviews, have you.

all of them, the expections of the new M3 are higher than anyone will admit to, the expectations of any Audi under the R8 are modest at best, given both car's past. you'll see I wrote driver's car. heads up testing and time will put both cars on a more equal editorial plateau and I predict as a driver's automobile the M3 will best the RS4.
Audi's and AMGs have been historic underdogs in this catagory, the public and the press are quite willing to see the M3 taken down a notch while the others elevated to create a good fight, which it will be. I looking forward to the final N'ring and track times for all of them.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by devo

I am not trying to stir things up again, but please stop saying that the M's braking peformance is better than the 911S. One test may have revealed a quicker stop. Try repeated runs and look for the road test of the 911S where it posted the best brake time ever at the time. It's pretty simple, the BMW's single pot, brakes are not even in the same league as the 911S. Face reality, PLEASE.

I did not say that, now nor previously, face reality, PLEASE. Seems you can't read. I did not want to run through the results one by one where the M has bested some very hot cars. However, just for grins, I will clarify my brief general statement. I meant that in a handful of limited contests, in preliminary tests, the M3 has selectively bested those cars. This INCLUDES out braking 100 km/h - 0 the 911 and Cayman S and out-ring-ing the 911S. Preliminary tests thus far have been a mixed bag on brake fade, some say it is there, others not. Only time will tell. However the single out braking figure we have relative to the 911 and Cayman S is quite impressive given the weight disadvantage of the car.

My preliminary thoughts are this: Get the M3 with M-DCT, buy a BBK, spend way less than the current 911S and it will outperform it in almost ALL regards. Feel free to carry on about how great the upcoming 911's will be.

[RI_RS4]

Originally Posted by BruceWain

Audi did NOT introduce DI into production, Mercedes did... and guess what, that model was used for racing.
The question is - Where do you get your information from ?
BMW has DI as well... actually their on the secound version of it and about to release the third.

My point was that Audi did these things before BMW. Not that it was first overall. Audi had a race winning DI engine in 2000, and had production DI engines on the road in 2001.

Originally Posted by BruceWain

"Audi will not sit still"
I guess you think BMW, Mercedes, Porsche or any other for that matter will.
What does that even mean. What is your point in writing that.

My point is that while the M3 is yet to be introduced in the US, yet another high performance competitor from Audi is on the horizon. The M3 design was already a reaction to the RS4, which was a reaction to the E46 M3 ... ad infinitum. Of course BMW will not sit still. I for one hope that the CSL is introduced in the US. It will be an absolutely awesome vehicle. However, based on the past, it's not clear that BWM will want to incur the cost in Federalizing it. That would be a terrible shame.

Originally Posted by BruceWain

Audi made ONE engine with VW money and you think they can keep up with BMW.....lol. Why do you think Audi is putting turbo(s) on that engine ? Because they can't make it pass the 100hp/l mark without them.

This is just a silly statement. The M3 engine was a reaction to the RS4 engine, as has been admitted to by BMW design engineers, and required that BMW produce an engine with the same Horsepower, and one-up it by improving HP/L. These are simple design changes. BMW went to a slightly more over-square design than Audi, in order to allow for a slightly higher upper RPM limit. They also pushed the Torque and HP curves up, peaking at higher RPMs, in order to achieve this. In the process BMW sacrificed maximum and low end torque, which is one of the complaints that reviewers have had.

Originally Posted by BruceWain

YOU better hope Audi doesn't return to it's turbo roots....lol.
Here you go with the modified vs. stock.
With the right "modifications" any car can "dwarf" another.

BMW never follows/followed Audi.....get your facts straight and be sure of that.

This is a thread about the RS5. As a result, I am providing conjecture based on what little information is currently known about the RS5 design, which is rumored to be a TT V8 producing 450 HP. As we all know, NA engines do not lend themselves to significant gains with aftermarket modifications, without the addition of FI. 10% additional HP and Torque is often the limit. However, you have to admit, a high revving V8 with additional turbos would make for an interesting engine.

Don't get me wrong, I think the new M3 is a great car. I'm not too keen on some of the styling, but then again, I don't like any of the new Bangle style. To me the E46 is classic. I think the M3 motor is one of the best BMW has produced. And I'm surprised by the brakes, like most of you are. It may very well be that with race pads and fluid they will be vindicated, but the reviews are not kind in this regard.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

The RS5 will more than likely supersede the performance numbers of the R8. First, they are in two totally different market segments. Second, there is another version of the R8 on the horizon with a V10 engine.

I don't know where you guys get your information, but BMW's competitors are not still in the 1990's, where you seem to think they are. Performance developments do happen outside of Bavaria. Funny thing, Audi introduced DI engines to racing, introduced DI engines into production, and then introduced a high performance DI engine before BMW.

You seem to have a real problem with facts. And the fact of the matter is that the RS4 is currently a close match to the M3, and Audi will not sit still. You claim that the new M3 is better than the RS4. Well it damn well better be. By the time it reaches the US market, it will FOLLOW the RS4 by 2 to 2 1/2 years. The RS4 will have been in the US for 2 years before BMW catches up. In that amount of time you should expect the M3 to be light years better. That it is only marginally better is a disappointment.

Audi showed that it could produce a production engine with the same performance as any BMW, and use that same engine across the entire product line. The FSI V8 is a testament to this. In the RS5, Audi will most likely return to it's turbocharged roots, placing that same V8 engine in a more-worthy chassis, and add twin turbos to it. Nothing that BMW currently makes will stand a chance. BMW will again be in FOLLOW mode. Stock the RS5 engine will smoke the M3 S65 engine. But modified, the RS5 engine will dwarf the S65. If you don't think so, you don't know Audi.

Isn't the RS5 suppose to have 2-doors (coupe)..? How many doors does the R8 have ..? Why do you think the RS5 will be quicker..? Currently, the Audi R8 is the eptiomy of Audi engineering. Yet it laps the Ring in 8:04..? The BMW CSL using a 10 year old Normally Apirated Inline-6 engine beats that time at 7:50. The new E90 M3 is "rumored" to do the Nurb ring @ 8:02 ~ 8:12, which seems reasonable. Yet there are still rumors it's closer to a flat 8:00. It remains to be seen. In any regards, where is the RS5 going to fit in there...?

BMW engines are from the 90's..? Isn't the RS4 a 4.2liter 420HP, V8 with FSI..? How does BMW get 420HP fron a 4.0liter that isn't HPI..?? (Think on what BMW's DFI (HPI) engine would do and another .2liters.) The M division has stated it won't be moving the M3, M5 and M6 into HPI untill possibly the next generation. Yet, S65 will probably win engine of the year and how light is it again..?

BMW engines are outdated by Audi's..? The n54 (335) with procede will outpace an RS4. Thats a 3.0liter engine...! And some how your threatening the BMW crowd about engine technology and outdated designs? Why?

Audi's are great cars with impressive interiors, but do not make the mistake that they are in the same league as BMW when it comes to engines. The M division races in Formula 1, have you had the chance to look at the new BMW engine, it's a mini F1 engine...!!!


You keep comparing the new BMW to the 2 year old RS4, but the old (e46) M3 still hold up well against it. I fail to see your point when you don't even understand what an M car is all about. Why did BMW release a biturbo 3 series capable of 420hp but did not use turbo's for the M-Power cars..? Because they know a CAR is more than just a superb engine, but it starts with a superb engine..!! Did you see me mention a biturbo 3.0 liter engine..? How will BMW be FOLLOWING Audi when they start comming out with those..?

How many Audi's engines have been given awards over the last 20 years?



The E90 BMW M3 beats the Audi RS4 0-200km/h, whats the R8's time?


The point is, your talking aout your arse! The little media weekend in spain allowed the press to get their hands on the new M3 and get a feel for what the car is about. They didn't have time to do a complete review or a shootout. When that day comes you'll see that Audi engineering isn't as deep as you thought it was.

Also, do you think BMW released the S65 will no potential gains..? Why do you think there is a dome on the hood...?






-Garrett

[southlight]

Let me quote what this guy was saying on the "other" site:
http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/59584.phtml

Their board is one of emotion, not fact, and I think they are very frustrated that they beloved M3 is only marginally better than an Audi. The fact that an RS5 looms 2 years over the horizon terrifies them. About the time they can afford to purchase an M3, the RS5 will be poised to smoke them. Oops! With all the arrogance and bravado that BMW has, it's amazing to me that it appears they didn't think the M3 design through to it's logical conclusion in the market place.

But facts are not his strong point either...

Best regards, south

[Wally330]

There is a lot of prestige involved in getting a quick lap time around the Nürburgring Nodschleife bordering on being a bit anal to some. However, the ring is a true test of driver and car. In one lap you experience very different dynamic situations with a combination of surfaces - smooth and bumpy sections, corners where the banking works for you and others where it works against you, dramatics climbs and drops. If you can build a car that performs well at the ring you'll have a car that both handles very well and rides very well.

If the ring time wasn't important to car manufacturers we wouldn't see as many high performance cars being tested there. That goes for both BMW and Audi. A go cart would not be the best at this track as the track is too bumpy. Too stiff a set-up would result in too much loss of grip.

For many drivers I guess the discussion on which car performs the best at the ring doesn't mean all that much but to many people the ring is the most difficult and demanding track anywhere in the world and thus the cars that perform well there are also capable of dealing with ordinary driving situations successfully.

For those who have not viewed the video about the Nürburgring at the BMWUSA X5 site I can recommend it. The 22 minute video (there is also a shorter 6 minute version) is interesting for all petrol heads I’d say. No matter what brand of car one may fancy.

Here’s the link:

http://content.bmwusa.com/microsite/...IESLANDINGSWF1

Click on “The Nürburgring Experience" and then on “Downloads” to get to the video.

Cheers

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by southlight

Let me quote what this guy was saying on the "other" site:
http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/59584.phtml


But facts are not his strong point either...

Best regards, south

Unbelievable. Did you see the reply title of that link? "Yes I saw that post and I defended our colors"?
Are you kidding me? And who is always screaming about fanboys?
Their board seems more preoccupied with what is going on over here than about their "beloved" Audi's. Why do so many of their members leak over here?
Do you see any threads on here dedicated to what Audi boards are saying about BMW's?
Grow up people.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Unbelievable. Did you see the reply title of that link? "Yes I saw that post and I defended our colors"?
Are you kidding me? And who is always screaming about fanboys?
Their board seems more preoccupied with what is going on over here than about their "beloved" Audi's. Why do so many of their members leak over here?
Do you see any threads on here dedicated to what Audi boards are saying about BMW's?
Grow up people.

I saw the title! Thats bad.

Best regards, south