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11-29-2008, 03:06 PM | #155 | |
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That was exactly my point, the Lancia that used dual charging was the very championship rally cars I meant. To knock different technologies just because it's different to the usually method BMW M cars use doesn't not mean they are a stupid choice. You haven't got to drive a Golf GT with the 1.4TSI engine and probably never will, but I can tell you that is it's technology, performance and economy are all very impressive. The only thing lacking was a decent vocal but then again it's not meant to be that way in a Golf. |
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11-29-2008, 03:17 PM | #156 |
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11-29-2008, 05:29 PM | #157 |
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Man, reading this thread you just see human psychology. Why don't we wait and SEE before passing judgment. And be flexible in your thoughts..What's with all the BMW bashing? I'm sure the next M3 will be better than the current one - no matter what engine it uses. Such has been the case with every M3, and it's not going to change. Talk about making something out of nothing!
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11-29-2008, 06:33 PM | #158 | |
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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11-29-2008, 06:40 PM | #159 | |
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Porsche made a Cayenne Turbo, using the same turbo badge as all the others. I don't see a problem with that. The M-series culture is a cherry on top. |
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11-29-2008, 07:16 PM | #160 | |
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11-29-2008, 07:22 PM | #161 | |
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You might be confused with the overboost system the cars had, which was electronically valve actuated. Twin charging is interesting on paper. However, you realize the VW system is made for economy not performance right? The supercharger shuts off after 2000 rpm and then the turbo takes over. It is not performance oriented but emissions oriented. If it was performance oriented, a supercharger working for only 2000 rpm and having a turbo is a waste. It just adds needless complexity to what will already be a beauty. |
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11-29-2008, 09:47 PM | #162 |
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They might be going the TT route to save weight and cost..it isnt exactly cheap to construct a lite 8 cylinder engine. A TT ala Porsche might make sense with the DI.
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11-29-2008, 10:15 PM | #163 | |
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And they are WELL aware of the M-brand's iconographic aspects and that translates to a margin premium per M-car unit sold: they won't intentionally dilute that premium.
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Just thinking of something not so witty ///M3 E92 '09 Jerez Black | 6MT | Ext Fox Red | Tech | Prem | 19s |Heated Seats | iPod |Smartphone | Euro Deliv June 09 Sold: 540iT / 530i / 323i |
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11-29-2008, 10:20 PM | #164 | |
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Just thinking of something not so witty ///M3 E92 '09 Jerez Black | 6MT | Ext Fox Red | Tech | Prem | 19s |Heated Seats | iPod |Smartphone | Euro Deliv June 09 Sold: 540iT / 530i / 323i |
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11-29-2008, 10:25 PM | #165 | |
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11-29-2008, 10:31 PM | #166 | |
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But don't journalists always say something like (in regards to Bimmers' manual transmissions): "the [6MT's] throws are unnecessarily elongated, but once you become familiar with its notchy changes you can row through the gears with surprising alacrity".
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Just thinking of something not so witty ///M3 E92 '09 Jerez Black | 6MT | Ext Fox Red | Tech | Prem | 19s |Heated Seats | iPod |Smartphone | Euro Deliv June 09 Sold: 540iT / 530i / 323i |
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11-30-2008, 04:01 AM | #167 | |
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I am seldom wrong but when I am I will admit it. Sorry mate but it ain't going to happen this time. As I said I know my stuff when it comes to cars and especially in a sport so dear to my heart. Lancia Delta S4 Group B You need to understand the theory behind dual charging, one deals with the low part of the rev range while the other deals with the high part of the rev range and gives the power. In a single turbo setup, to produce big power figures requires a large turbo to max the air flow but with this design you get lag, quite a lot. So dual charging is the ideal solution, that is where a small turbo works the low revs (small turbine = quicker spooling and less lag) and a larger turbo that starts spooling before the smaller one hands over the reigns thus zero lag and lots of power everywhere. This system is used in the 335d but not the 335i which uses twin turbo technology, that is two turbos working together, this is the reason why they are very small and only boost the power and torque by a small amount. The dual charging that VW adopted works really well because the supercharger works instantly (even quicker than a small turbo) and because of it's size uses next to no power to run. Yes VW chose economy over power with this engine but the technology and design works for a power application just as well. |
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11-30-2008, 04:27 AM | #168 |
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Well done footie. The gr B Delta S4 had a Volumex compressor(low rpm) and a turbo(higher rpm) , and a 1800cc 4 cylinder engine....
In my puberty years(15/16 years old lol) I watched the whole group B era on television in the mid '80s. I was a big fan (first) of the Audi Quattro, but became a big Pug(205Turbo 16/E2) and Lancia S4 Fan but also the Metro 6R4 and the great Ford RS 200! Ari Vatanen, Timo Salonen, Henri Toivonen(RIP), Markku Alén, Hannu Mikkola, Stig Blomqvist, Michelle Mouton(f), Massimo Biasion, Walter Rörhl(yes the one and only), Juh Kankkunnen and more are the heroes of an era before Colin McRae(RIP) and Richard Burns(RIP, I love playing the RBR rally sim) and now Solberg, Grönholm, Loeb, Galli and many others. Those cars were faster than fast. I think it was in '85 or '86 that a Peugeot 205 T16 driven bij Kankkunen or Salonen(I don't recall) drove a rallystage in Portugal, and one part of that stage was the short part of the famous Grand Prix track at Estoril or something like that. The speeds they achieved with that small Peugeot 205 with 530BHP @ 900kgs (4wd) were enough to place them at position 14 at the starting grid for FORMULA 1 in that year. Can you imagine that? OK, here an example of contempory rallying, Gigi Galli in his Mitsu EVO, at 47 seconds(EVO V), one of the greatest handbrake turns/flicks ever in history. Last edited by Robin_NL; 11-30-2008 at 04:58 AM.. |
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11-30-2008, 04:40 AM | #169 | |
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You realize the Group B class was discontinued don't you? The reason being people kept killing themselves in those overpowered freak cars. The class was disbanded in 1986, BEFORE Lancia went on its winning streak starting in 1987 using the Integrale which WAS NOT TWIN CHARGED. Nice try though Footie.. Oh, and with the turbos, what you are referring to is sequential turbos, which is not twin charged by the definition you are using which is two separate power adders. It is still a twin turbo setup, and your idea still is stupid on an M car, but I still love you. Oh, and Footie, the Delta S4 was never the car that brought Lancia its Manufacturers championships, it was a failure and a road going production model is not what it is based on. Still, nice try. Lancia themselves tried to replace it with the ECV but the class was scrapped and the Integrale with its turbo engine went on to dominate rally racing with a car actually based on a production model. Last edited by Sticky; 11-30-2008 at 05:21 AM.. |
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11-30-2008, 04:52 AM | #171 | |
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Anyway, the Delta S4 story, very interesting. I don't know for sure but the predecessor037 had only a Volomex charger as I recall(???)
http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/lancia_S4.htm Quote:
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11-30-2008, 05:06 AM | #172 | |
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"That was exactly my point, the Lancia that used dual charging was the very championship rally cars I meant." The car he actually meant that was the championship Lancia that dominated rally racing was the Delta Integrale. The Delta S4, was not dual charged by design. They added a turbo later to the supercharged motor to remain competitive because they were getting destroyed. It was not a function of by design, it was the only solution that allowed them to remain competitive within the rules. Footie: "Well Lancia found great success with such a setup". No, they did not find great success, they did not win a Group B championship. The car in question also was a failure and replaced. It was also used only in Group B, not based on a production car. They did homologate 200 S4 Stradales so they could compete after the fact, but these were not the same thing as the rally car obviously. Second of all, I never said Lancia never had a rally car with a turbo and a supercharger. Nissan also made an actual production car with a turbo and supercharger, look into that if you want. I wish people knew WTF they were talking about... Last edited by Sticky; 11-30-2008 at 05:25 AM.. |
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11-30-2008, 05:41 AM | #174 |
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+1 and
Best regards, south
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11-30-2008, 06:17 AM | #176 | ||
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P.S. I was there during one of the deaths in question so I know very well why they were banned. Quote:
Hopefully this pissing contest can be concluded and the discussion of possible M3 engines can get back on track. |
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