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04-13-2009, 04:37 PM | #89 | |||||
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Wow, you really are that clueless. You make a bunch of premature and patently false claims and your credibility is in question. Wow what a surpise... As you can see I am not the only one questioning your credibility.
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04-13-2009, 08:06 PM | #90 | |
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The bracket looks to me that it might be a problem. You see that the aluminium beam center is much higher that the mount bracket bolts. It’s going to create a nasty bending moment under tension. In the first 2 seconds of seeing that it more or less screamed wrong. I looked at most of the possible load cases and the all result in tension on this beam but I don’t think this will ever happen to any degree. At this point you only need to do a few hand calculation of the bracket and make a few good assumptions to see if this will even work. You just need to get information of the bracket dimensions. You don't need any info from ACS. My gut feeling tells me its not going to be great. I not sure Frank wants to question anyones credibility…..I spend 75% of my time doing non linear FEA and CFD Analysis so this is kind up my ally. Still like to see the vendor support their claims in a short paragraph. I do this every day so how hard can it be. Orb Last edited by Orb; 04-13-2009 at 09:00 PM.. |
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04-13-2009, 11:11 PM | #91 | |
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Cool, what tools do you use? I sell ANSYS/Fluent tools myself. I used to use quite a bit of ANSYS Mechanical tools when I was an ME. |
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04-13-2009, 11:20 PM | #92 |
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Driving reviews
Hello board,
I have been reading thread after thread about how this bar can not affect stiffness and driving feel. Most threads seem to have valid claims regarding physics, load, torsion, and it's effects on the chassis while cornering. I can even agree with the assumption that each strut tower can move vertically at different rates thus creating some form of pivot in the bar. Heck, all of these experts chiming in about the laws of physics and engineering even got me to question the bars effectiveness. All this being said, my position has still not changed. The bar makes a VERY noticeable change in driving feel. The car does not roll as much and is more horizontal (flat) while pulling though the turns. Maybe I'm not explaining myself properly, but this is more than a feeling. Unlike the "feel" of a horsepower gain (butt dyno), a suspension adjustment is much more noticeable. Let me explain: During the adjustment period of my race suspension (about 200 mile for street setup), I played with the settings and drove through a street corse consisting of highway on/off ramps, elevation changing curves, and some tight corners. I've driven this route at least 100 times over the last 7 years with all of my cars. Over the last 5000 miles in my M3, I've driven the route about 6 times with my current suspension settings. I just did it again with the bar installed.... Hands down different. The limits were raised and the car felt planted. It was begging for more gas coming out of the sweeper and took the corners like a champ. Now all of the posts that claim this bar can't work seem silly to me. Again, no one is arguing that a solid bar would not make it stiffer. Just that this bar makes it stiff enough to feel and improves cornering. IMO, the fact that it can be easily removed and still offers improved stiffness over stock is validation enough of a well designed product. Thanks for reading! |
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04-14-2009, 12:23 AM | #93 | |
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I think the story ends here for this bar as I don't think the vendor will address this simple question. I guess that is two ME who think the brace doesn't do much. Orb Last edited by Orb; 04-14-2009 at 12:49 AM.. |
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04-14-2009, 03:17 AM | #94 | |||
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As bad as a butt dyno is for small changes it is pretty good for detecting gross acceleration changes when confounding factors like NVH and acoustics are held constant. The subtleties of suspension function take considerably more training to accurately determine with the "butt dyno". Especially when you are not near, at or above the cars tractive limits. Were you driving tail out on these roads? Quote:
All of the cute smileys are not going to convince me and I doubt they will convince 95% of the folks here. I am pretty much done here and am not going to waste my time further. That is until you offer: 1. Blind placebo test 2. Static mechanical test data 3. Statistical lap time or other quantitative suspension/handling test metrics. |
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04-14-2009, 07:26 AM | #95 |
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Frank,
Since you have the bar installed in your car and you can easily feel the difference driving on the street. You would be the perfect person to conduct the blind test. It's quite simple and would prove this thing works or not. Test: Since the bar is easily removable, you can have one of your buddies prepare the car for you with and without the bar. Do ten runs on the same course you listed above. In between runs let your buddy take your car where you can't see it and either remove or replace the bar and bring it back to you. Let the number of times the bar is in or out be random and not necessarily an equal number of both. After ten runs of blindly testing the bar you should be able to report which runs were with and which runs were without. Post up your results. You probably don't even need to get it 100% right, but if you get most of the runs correct that should probably be good enough to convince to forum it works.
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04-14-2009, 11:08 AM | #96 |
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Placebo test
I agree we should do a blind test, but we should also have Blake do one on his end as well. I do not believe that some on this forum will take my word for it, hence the 5 page thread about this bar.
Not to go off topic here, but some of the information that is being requested will not be furnished by the vendor. Just by the descriptions and pictures I have already provided, I have made it easier for others to use the design to create a lower cost bar. By way of the posts in this thread, this thought has already crossed the minds of some that are not even in said industry. Having said this, I do not believe that a placebo test will compromise any of the information gained during design and development. Blake, maybe you can conduct your test on the your next track day? Thanks for your comments. |
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04-14-2009, 11:12 AM | #97 | |
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A blind test will be incredibly valuable to anyone considering this bar. Thank you for committing to do it. Dave
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04-14-2009, 11:32 AM | #98 | |
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04-14-2009, 12:02 PM | #100 |
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Simple. Don't over price the bar and then complain that people can and want to make it for cheaper.
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04-14-2009, 12:06 PM | #101 |
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If you're honest about your test and don't cheat and look to see if the bar is there or not on each run how can people not believe you?
At the end of each run just say whether you thought bar was installed or not. I'd say at least ten times just to have a fair sample to look at and we know it's not just a lucky guess. Then just open the trunk and report on you answers.
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04-14-2009, 12:48 PM | #102 |
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Given the hype and excitement Frank has shown for this product I would only be satisfied with a 3rd disinterested party moderating the placebo test. Similarly, the results of which run did or did not have the bar should be available to the driver only after completion of ALL of the runs.
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04-14-2009, 01:33 PM | #103 | |
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04-14-2009, 05:54 PM | #104 |
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04-14-2009, 08:11 PM | #105 |
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Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
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2003 RS6 - Sold [0.00] 2009 e90 M3 - Gone [0.00] 2003 M3 SOLD [0.00] old 2002 [10.00] |
DIE!!!! Thread DIE!!!
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04-14-2009, 10:23 PM | #106 | |
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2009 Msrp $580
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This is a typo. Please note that next to the price there is a code (B,C) . Since we are the importer, we have a structured discount for all of our dealerships and vendors. This code represents the dealer discount on the item. If you look on the M3 price guide, the discount code is "B". On the E90 and E92 price lists, the same part number is a "C" code. 2009 prices were calculated last week (prior to my vacation). In 2008 the bar was a "B" code on all price lists with a price of $776. The new 2009 price is indeed $580 and is now a "C" code item across the board. This was a mistake in the calculation done by marketing. All chassis are not up yet, but should be up by next week. It's my job to proof them but as you guys know I'm on vacation (kind of). This thread also got me to catch another mistake. This bar does not fit the E93, but it does not specify this in the E92/93 M3 price guide. It will only fit E90/E91, LCI, and E92. Damn you guys! Making me work on my vacation. j/k |
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04-14-2009, 11:00 PM | #108 | |
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Frank, Do you have it in stock? Anyone who complaints about the price now it's time to get it before the price increase |
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04-27-2009, 09:55 PM | #109 |
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cheap way of getting above
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255748 |
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04-28-2009, 10:17 AM | #110 | |
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