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      01-07-2012, 09:06 PM   #1
stefan
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Wheel balance issue caused by Turner spacers?

Just installed 4x12.5mm TMS spacers on OEM 219M's and noticed a wheel balance issue north of 120kmph. Any idea why? Could it be that there always was one and now it is just more noticeable? Or can spacers cause issues with balance?

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Last edited by stefan; 02-03-2012 at 10:31 AM.
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      01-07-2012, 09:28 PM   #2
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Spacers can exaggerate or enhance wheel imbalance. My suggestion is to remove the wheels and spacers and make sure everything is clean. That is the hub, both faces of the spacers, and the hub face of the wheel. When you put your wheels back on make sure you tighten the bolts snug in a star pattern sequence. After that you can do one of two things, and this is how I do it, you can either lower the jack till the tires barely touch the ground and then torque down your bolts (again, in star pattern) or....you can get someone to sit in the car while the car or wheel is still in the air and have them step on the brake and then you torque them down. I find when I do this, especially with the latter procedure, I don't get any vibration in the steering wheel. Hope this helps.
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      01-07-2012, 09:29 PM   #3
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i have TMS on all 4 corners and have not noticed any type of issue on my my 219s when I had them and on my 220s currently. Maybe someone else can chime in
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      01-07-2012, 09:46 PM   #4
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Same here. TMS on all 4 corners and I don't have any balance issues. TMS spacers are good spacers.
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      01-07-2012, 10:09 PM   #5
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I had some corrosion on the hub, odd considering its 4mo old. I scrubbed a bit off but didn't make it completely clean. I'll go buy a wire brush drill bit and go to town.. Might do the job then..
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      01-08-2012, 09:20 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
I had some corrosion on the hub, odd considering its 4mo old. I scrubbed a bit off but didn't make it completely clean. I'll go buy a wire brush drill bit and go to town.. Might do the job then..
+1 Akina335
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      01-08-2012, 11:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akina335 View Post
Spacers can exaggerate or enhance wheel imbalance. My suggestion is to remove the wheels and spacers and make sure everything is clean. That is the hub, both faces of the spacers, and the hub face of the wheel. When you put your wheels back on make sure you tighten the bolts snug in a star pattern sequence. After that you can do one of two things, and this is how I do it, you can either lower the jack till the tires barely touch the ground and then torque down your bolts (again, in star pattern) or....you can get someone to sit in the car while the car or wheel is still in the air and have them step on the brake and then you torque them down. I find when I do this, especially with the latter procedure, I don't get any vibration in the steering wheel. Hope this helps.
This is exactly how I reinstall lug nuts/bolts, too. A bit off-topic, but it always surprises me when I see pro pit crews during a race retighten in a CIRCULAR pattern with an AIRGUN. Obviously there is tremendous time pressure to get the car back on the track, but this practice would seem to violate the two most basic tenets of proper wheel reinstallation--torquing to a specified value so as to not overtighten, and torquing in a star pattern so that excessive pressure isn't applied asymmetrically to the hub. Especially with the speeds and component stresses involved in racing, how do they get away with this?

Back on topic, I use the 12.5mm Turner spacers all-around on my winter setup ZCP wheels and have no balance issues, either.
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      01-08-2012, 12:33 PM   #8
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I did tighten down in a star pattern using the method where the wheel barely touches.. And the issue is definitely minor but still exists. Today I will try reducing the corrosion.

Side note.. does that strike anyone as incredibly odd that a brand new car would have thick corrosion on the rear hubs? e.g., approx 1mm thick?
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      01-08-2012, 01:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
I did tighten down in a star pattern using the method where the wheel barely touches.. And the issue is definitely minor but still exists. Today I will try reducing the corrosion.

Side note.. does that strike anyone as incredibly odd that a brand new car would have thick corrosion on the rear hubs? e.g., approx 1mm thick?
Not necessarily--I would assume you see your share of rain and moisture up in Alberta, even during the summer months. I think the moisture finds its way into the hubs pretty easily. The wheel center caps protect somewhat, but they're certainly not watertight. I noticed the rust/corrosion you're talking about pretty early on with my M3, and also with my former M5. It's why the guys who run Volk TE37SLs without center caps tend to clean up their hubs and coat them with a corrosion-resistant black paint.
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      01-08-2012, 02:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
Not necessarily--I would assume you see your share of rain and moisture up in Alberta, even during the summer months. I think the moisture finds its way into the hubs pretty easily. The wheel center caps protect somewhat, but they're certainly not watertight. I noticed the rust/corrosion you're talking about pretty early on with my M3, and also with my former M5. It's why the guys who run Volk TE37SLs without center caps tend to clean up their hubs and coat them with a corrosion-resistant black paint.
Some wheels are just not compatible with spacers. My road force balanced RAC RG63 18" with PSS vibrate like nutz with any brand spacers. Took them off and rides smooth... lol
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      01-08-2012, 05:51 PM   #11
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Picked up this car, brand new, in September..


Fronts were OK. Here's a shot with the TMS stud kit and spacers installed
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      01-08-2012, 06:02 PM   #12
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thats some thick ass corrosion!!! I did clean mine with some scotch pad before I installed my TMS spacers with anti seize. I hope its the corrosion that's giving you the problem
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      01-08-2012, 06:10 PM   #13
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I reinstalled the spacers using aluminium antiseize. I fear that the shop that changed my 219m's over to winter tires used copper antiseize, and well, that's the electrolysis result. The issue has seemingly gone away or at least become unnoticeable. When I switch over to my summers I'll take a wire wheel to it and really scrub it out.

Anyone have recommendations for coatings that I can put inside the hub?
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      01-08-2012, 06:29 PM   #14
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Your pics above don't look that much worse than what I've seen on my cars. You bought your car in September, but was it an August or September build? If not, and if it had been in your dealer's inventory for a few months, that would have been plenty of time for the corrosion to build.
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      01-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
A bit off-topic, but it always surprises me when I see pro pit crews during a race retighten in a CIRCULAR pattern with an AIRGUN. Obviously there is tremendous time pressure to get the car back on the track, but this practice would seem to violate the two most basic tenets of proper wheel reinstallation--torquing to a specified value so as to not overtighten, and torquing in a star pattern so that excessive pressure isn't applied asymmetrically to the hub. Especially with the speeds and component stresses involved in racing, how do they get away with this?
The torquing, I'm guessing, is predetermined in the air gun. As for why circular vs star, well that I can't tell you. Maybe it doesn't matter for the race cars (like NASCAR) as the hubs will probably still line up because of the degree of torque from the airgun, thus not allowing it to get stuck at an angle? Maybe their hubs are designed in a special way so that circular pattern won't negatively effect tightening the wheel in a symmetrical pattern?

Good question. That's why center locking wheels are the best for racing applications. Just 4 locks total and you're good
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      01-10-2012, 10:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
Some wheels are just not compatible with spacers. My road force balanced RAC RG63 18" with PSS vibrate like nutz with any brand spacers. Took them off and rides smooth... lol
Sorry to hear that. Since I put the Dinan monoballs on, I haven't had a problem. I originally had a vibration with my 12mm Rogue spacers and then minor vibration with the 15mm MS spacers. I didn't notice a problem prior to putting on the 18" RACs. Found a good shop to balance the wheels and put the monoballs on; and haven't had a problem since. Try Custom Alignment in Mountain View. They tend to fix any problem.
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      01-11-2012, 01:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
Sorry to hear that. Since I put the Dinan monoballs on, I haven't had a problem. I originally had a vibration with my 12mm Rogue spacers and then minor vibration with the 15mm MS spacers. I didn't notice a problem prior to putting on the 18" RACs. Found a good shop to balance the wheels and put the monoballs on; and haven't had a problem since. Try Custom Alignment in Mountain View. They tend to fix any problem.
Custom Alignment did my balancing and checked it after I went back about the vibration. (Rogue spacers, 12mm).

Then I went home and tried different spacers (Macht Schnell, 15mm). Same issue.

Took them off- no vibration.
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      01-11-2012, 04:29 AM   #18
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i don't have much knowledge on this issue but just a wild guess. If one use spacer, shouldn't the wheel be road force balanced WITH the spacer? During the road force balancing, there is a load on the wheel which put force on the mounting surface. When you run a spacer, the effective mounting surface and the load bearing centerline of the wheel would be different than without the spacer, right? Don't shoot me guys, just guessing here. cheers.
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      01-16-2012, 06:10 PM   #19
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i would like to share some funny expirience: one of our own employee drives a 6ser BMW and we did our new wheels RW6 for a photoshoot, well one of our good dealers hook him up with a new set of spacers ( like 10 or 15mm ) just to see how agressive we could go, well one day going home i noticed his rear wheels where wobbleling averiwhere, i even ask if he noticed anything he said no, well ones we check and check it turns out the wheels where actually wobbleling like they where about to fall out. why?
turns out the spacer bolt holes where slightly larger then original ones so it caused movement. i just never thought that something that simple could do such a thing. just some info.
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      01-16-2012, 08:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRRwheels View Post
i would like to share some funny expirience: one of our own employee drives a 6ser BMW and we did our new wheels RW6 for a photoshoot, well one of our good dealers hook him up with a new set of spacers ( like 10 or 15mm ) just to see how agressive we could go, well one day going home i noticed his rear wheels where wobbleling averiwhere, i even ask if he noticed anything he said no, well ones we check and check it turns out the wheels where actually wobbleling like they where about to fall out. why?
turns out the spacer bolt holes where slightly larger then original ones so it caused movement. i just never thought that something that simple could do such a thing. just some info.
Interesting--but I would assume that as long as the wheel's bolt holes are chamfered or beveled, and the bolts or nuts are chamfered as well (and they are in all BMW applications I've seen), then a properly torqued down wheel, with enough threads making contact, should be secure in its mounting, regardless of a slightly larger spacer bolt hole. My Turner spacers, which are made specifically for BMW applications, have slightly larger diameter bolt holes than the diameter of the bolts themselves. After all, you don't screw the spacer down onto the wheel hub--you slide it on.
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      01-16-2012, 08:39 PM   #21
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Paradocs, your correct, and trust me what your saying makes perfect sence to me, but what we saw didnt lol. about 4 weeks have past since and now he is rolling with new spacers and 0" isues. maybe the cut on the spacer was slightly off. what i was trying to point out is that sometimes a spacer is not fully perfect.
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      02-02-2012, 06:00 PM   #22
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Alright so I have cleaned the hell out of the hubs, been extra sparing with the anti-seize, been religious about torquing, and I still have minor vibration at 120+kmph. This is getting weird because these spacers have almost no complaints about them, which is why I picked them up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
Interesting--but I would assume that as long as the wheel's bolt holes are chamfered or beveled, and the bolts or nuts are chamfered as well (and they are in all BMW applications I've seen), then a properly torqued down wheel, with enough threads making contact, should be secure in its mounting, regardless of a slightly larger spacer bolt hole. My Turner spacers, which are made specifically for BMW applications, have slightly larger diameter bolt holes than the diameter of the bolts themselves. After all, you don't screw the spacer down onto the wheel hub--you slide it on.
As you mention, there is a little bit of side to side play when mounting the spacer (that is, in a clockwise/counter-clockwise direction on either side of the wheel studs). Could this be the issue?

Photo of a cleaned hub..
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