E92 M3 DCT vs E63 vs CARRERA S PDK

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Sticky

You can make a system that can out launch a human.

You can't program a system that will think the way in a human being does and be able to adjust like a human being can on the fly to various circumstances.

This is not the same argument as to why a DCT can out shift a human, DCT has a mechanical advantage. Computers and sensors can't THINK, that is the essence of the difference.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. Fortunately we agree on the key point. If you slightly abstract away from what a DCT accomplishes and think more about how it does so you will realize a good automated LC is in the exact same vein.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

WRONG, it's not the power that is the limiting factor with awd or rwd but the amount of traction. Increase the traction and you place the parts up stream under added stress.

Footie, what the hell do you mean wrong? If you have traction with AWD, and dump the clutch at 7k RPM, where is the give? Something will give, and that is the tranny, as has been happening with the GTR. You don't get it, RWD has an advantage in the power it can handle in this sense.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

When you are getting excessive wheelspin then yes I prefer to keep my foot off the floor. Try moving yourself out of the sunshine state and try using LC when it's cold and damp.

As a tool the LC provided in the M3 as I see it is solely a variable rev point which you can control between 4500~6000rpm and it shifts gear for you at red line, it seems to provide no option of controlling the amount of wheelspin and as such it's quicker forgetting about it completely if like me you're seldom in the situation of ideal traction conditions.

Why am I using launch control when its cold and damp again? Like I said, you want to adjust for that? Get a manual, problem solved.

Yep, it is solely to let you rev high and dump the clutch, awesome. Way better than SMG launch control. It isn't perfect, that is the point I was getting across.

[spearfisher]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Well, you are wrong. A human can compensate for conditions, the computer can't.

I'm sure you know the DCT very well due to the fact that your car is equipped with it. I've only limited experience with it.

But, you have to remember, not everyone is as skilled as you at launching high performance vehicles, so I would say the launch control will do a better job than 60-70% of the people out there, as you know track conditions change as more runs are performed. They have better systems than what is programmed in the BMW on other vehicles, ex 911. Which I think will do better than 80% of the poeple out there.

[Driver72]

Results seem right to me.

The 05-08 Carrera S manual would trap in the 112-113 mph range
E63's seem to be in the 113-114 range
M3's seem to be in the 112-113 range.

New Carrera S with PDK should trap in the 114-115 mph range.

I've run two e63's in my tune only 335i and one had a big jump on me as he nailed the throttle at least one second early so he got 3 CL's ahead, but after that I stayed right with him (maybe creeping up a bit it was hard to tell) till 125.
next time when we went out with a group of GTR's, Vipers, M5's, EVO's, etc, I ran the e63 and he had an exhaust and we hung even from 40-120 mph.
My 335i was on 91 Octane and on other mods except the JB3 1.0 tune.
Dynoed 339 rwhp with that set up.
Now I have JB3 1.2 and on 91 Octane dynoed 343 rwhp, everything else stock (except 19" wheels).

With my set up trap speeds in the 113-114 mph range. So again, based on what I've seen, the results seem right. Still waiting to run a stock M3 but doing so would confirm results even more. But I'd expect to pull 1/2-1 CL on a stock M3 from 40-120 (that seems to be the usual outcome from others with current tune only 335's).




Nice runs to the OP, look at it this way, both those other two cars you ran cost significantly more than yours, especially the new P-car.
Oh and you can post all the smileys you want. It's not that facet that's the gauge of age and maturity (and intelligence).

[likestogofast]

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Results seem right to me.

The 05-08 Carrera S manual would trap in the 112-113 mph range
E63's seem to be in the 113-114 range
M3's seem to be in the 112-113 range.

New Carrera S with PDK should trap in the 114-115 mph range.

I've run two e63's in my tune only 335i and one had a big jump on me as he nailed the throttle at least one second early so he got 3 CL's ahead, but after that I stayed right with him (maybe creeping up a bit it was hard to tell) till 125.
next time when we went out with a group of GTR's, Vipers, M5's, EVO's, etc, I ran the e63 and he had an exhaust and we hung even from 40-120 mph.
My 335i was on 91 Octane and on other mods except the JB3 1.0 tune.
Dynoed 339 rwhp with that set up.
Now I have JB3 1.2 and on 91 Octane dynoed 343 rwhp, everything else stock (except 19" wheels).

With my set up trap speeds in the 113-114 mph range. So again, based on what I've seen, the results seem right. Still waiting to run a stock M3 but doing so would confirm results even more. But I'd expect to pull 1/2-1 CL on a stock M3 from 40-120 (that seems to be the usual outcome from others with current tune only 335's).




Nice runs to the OP, look at it this way, both those other two cars you ran cost significantly more than yours, especially the new P-car.
Oh and you can post all the smileys you want. It's not that facet that's the gauge of age and maturity (and intelligence).

Why do you bring your 335 up everywhere on the M3 forum? You just take threads off topic all the time. I can't believe you haven't been banned for this.

The 05 Carrera S does not trap 113 anywhere but in a magazine, and only one magazine at that. I was at the track with one, same time, same place. Car was modified, and I was trapping 4 mph higher and running almost a full second faster.

343 wheel on 91 octane?

Way to try and make the thread about an M3 vs. a 335. No one is interested in 335's here, don't you get it?

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Why do you bring your 335 up everywhere on the M3 forum? You just take threads off topic all the time. I can't believe you haven't been banned for this.

Umm note to the weak of mind: this forum subsection is called "M3 vs." it's meant to be used to talk about the M3 vs other cars, and yes that even means other BMW's.

Originally Posted by Sticky

The 05 Carrera S does not trap 113 anywhere but in a magazine, and only one magazine at that. I was at the track with one, same time, same place. Car was modified, and I was trapping 4 mph higher and running almost a full second faster.

Is this more of your speculation, uninformed ignorance and pure arrogance shining through again? Yes it is! So just because YOU did better than one at the track, once again, that means YOU must be right, the magazine testers are wrong, and anybody and everybody else who has raced one and knows they can trap in the 112-113 range is wrong huh? You did read that I said 112-113 right?
Your continued wrongful, miss informative arrogance and replies is baffling.
**Oh, by the by, I happened to have raced one or two of them myself and know they can run in that 112-113 range.

go 1:45 in to see full race

Oh and you are aware in a Car and Driver comparo the base 2009 Carrera with PDK out accelerated the M3 with DCT aren't you? The base Carrera did the 1/4 mile in 12.5 @ 113 mph.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._test/(page)/1

Originally Posted by Sticky

343 wheel on 91 octane?

Wow, once again, time for you to put your foot in your mouth.
Here's my dyno:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236787

Yes 343 rwhp and 360 rwtq on 91 Octane, all else stock (except 19" wheels that are actually a bit taller than the stock 18's),
Then on 93-94 Octane it was 351 rwhp and 367 rwtq and that was with very little adaptation time and after 22-23 dyno runs on a very warm engine.
Why the hate, why the jealousy.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Way to try and make the thread about an M3 vs. a 335. No one is interested in 335's here, don't you get it?

Didn't make the thread about M3 and 335i. I spoke of the cars in the topic and used my races with my 335i as support for the truthful outcome of the OP's race findings. Don't you get that? Don't you get that only you seem to care and get your panties in a wad when someone mentions the 335i? And don't you get only you seem to jump on everybody's posts and insult them and make personal attacks continuously. After a banning already, don't you get you are not suppose to do that and that doing that is not welcomed or desired by anybody?

Guess it's time to report you again for continued personal attacks on other members which is a violation of the rules.
If you don't agree with other people's views and posts (which is pretty much everybody's all the time) you should simply stay out of them and not respond, otherwise, bye bye again.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Umm note to the weak of mind: this forum subsection is called "M3 vs." it's meant to be used to talk about the M3 vs other cars, and yes that even means other BMW's.



Is this more of your speculation, uninformed ignorance and pure arrogance shining through again? Yes it is! So just because YOU did better than one at the track, once again, that means YOU must be right, the magazine testers are wrong, and anybody and everybody else who has raced one and knows they can trap in the 112-113 range is wrong huh? You did read that I said 112-113 right?
Your continued wrongful, miss informative arrogance and replies is baffling.
**Oh, by the by, I happened to have raced one or two of them myself and know they can run in that 112-113 range.

go 1:45 in to see full race

Oh and you are aware in a Car and Driver comparo the base 2009 Carrera with PDK out accelerated the M3 with DCT aren't you? The base Carrera did the 1/4 mile in 12.5 @ 113 mph.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._test/(page)/1



Wow, once again, time for you to put your foot in your mouth.
Here's my dyno:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236787

Yes 343 rwhp and 360 rwtq on 91 Octane, all else stock (except 19" wheels that are actually a bit taller than the stock 18's),
Then on 93-94 Octane it was 351 rwhp and 367 rwtq and that was with very little adaptation time and after 22-23 dyno runs on a very warm engine.
Why the hate, why the jealousy.




Didn't make the thread about M3 and 335i. I spoke of the cars in the topic and used my races with my 335i as support for the truthful outcome of the OP's race findings. Don't you get that? Don't you get that only you seem to care and get your panties in a wad when someone mentions the 335i? And don't you get only you seem to jump on everybody's posts and insult them and make personal attacks continuously. After a banning already, don't you get you are not suppose to do that and that doing that is not welcomed or desired by anybody?

Guess it's time to report you again for continued personal attacks on other members which is a violation of the rules.
If you don't agree with other people's views and posts (which is pretty much everybody's all the time) you should simply stay out of them and not respond, otherwise, bye bye again.

I must have missed where the 335 was mentioned in the topic of this thread.

343 wheel on pump? LOL once again.

You are aware you mentioned a 2005-2008 Carrera S? You somehow missing that? Sorry, magazine times don't mean anything in comparison to ACTUALLY TESTING YOURSELF ON A DRAG STRIP AT THE SAME TIME IN THE REAL WORLD. Unless you think running around with a magazine is more relevant that what actually takes place? Instead of living off others accomplishments, let us all know when you do something of relevance.

Feel free to report posts and run for help. Kids must have loved you growing up. Do you run and tell when people J-walk as well? I haven't violated any rules here except for hurting your fragile feelings. Have fun on e90post with people that are a closer demographic match, keep your 335 out of here and where it belongs, thanks.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Sticky

I must have missed where the 335 was mentioned in the topic of this thread.

343 wheel on pump? LOL once again.

You are aware you mentioned a 2005-2008 Carrera S? You somehow missing that? Sorry, magazine times don't mean anything in comparison to ACTUALLY TESTING YOURSELF ON A DRAG STRIP AT THE SAME TIME IN THE REAL WORLD. Unless you think running around with a magazine is more relevant that what actually takes place? Instead of living off others accomplishments, let us all know when you do something of relevance.

Feel free to report posts and run for help. Kids must have loved you growing up. Do you run and tell when people J-walk as well? I haven't violated any rules here except for hurting your fragile feelings. Have fun on e90post with people that are a closer demographic match, keep your 335 out of here and where it belongs, thanks.

And your points are?

1. You clearly missed the part in my post where I used my real world results running my 335i against the e63 and 05-08 Carrera S as real world evidence of the validity of the outcome of the OP's races. You on the other hand, as usual, just don't believe it and argue and attack the OP as if it isn't factual, because of course, you always know more than everybody else.

2. Sorry you can't accept the fact that a 335i with just a $500 tune on 91 Octane dynos 343 rwhp and 360 rwtq. You are only laughing at yourself inside. See dyno charts.

3. Kids did love me. Was well involved and had and have lots of friends? You

4.. You keep trying to tell me to "keep my 335i out of here"
When this is a M3 vs. topic forum. What part of that is not clear to you? Or are you as usual just going to argue that fact to and state how wrong it is.

5. Noticed you didn't comment on the video of the older Carrera S manual convertible pulling away from the M3 DCT convertible in the video. M3 DCT convertible traps at what 110 or so. Hmm the car pulling away from that looks like it would trap about 2 mph faster. That's 112 right? Oh and it was the convertible too, so the lighter more aerodynamic CS coupe would trap .5-1 mph faster. That's 112-113 right?
And just think the newer Porsche Carrera S is faster yet.
Also notice you didn't comment on how the base 09 Carrera with PDK out accelerated the M3 with DCT.
Or is that because you are now going to campaign and state that the 911 and "bringing it up" doesn't belong here either?

What really doesn't belong here is the constant arguing and hate you bring. It didn't take you long to attack me again when I posted in this thread, and it doesn't take a lot of reading in this and other threads to see all your constant attacking of others too, with consistently arrogant and wrongful information too.

Oh and if you want to see how fragile I am come meet me at my training center and back up all that big talk.

[footie]

Driver72,

Sticky will come right back at you with this video you know,

I personally have no faith in any of these videos because you never know whether they are stock or not and whether they are all running regular fuel. I have more faith in magazine results because they are indenpendent from the manufacturers and don't have an ego to uphold.

Based on power to weight and the added traction the Porsche will have from it's engine position I doubt any stock M3 will win a race from a standstill.

[Robin_NL]

Well that vid says enough, just like it is. I testdrove a 6MT 997S C2 355BHP thoroughly last spring and it's a great car in many aspects and IS or FEELS faster from 0-100kmh than my E90 M3 6MT. But from 80-240kmh through gears the M3 actually IS a tad faster, just like the vid is showing. 420BHP vs 355BHP I guess. Though the 997GT3 Mk1 drives away from a M3 like a madman with 5BHP less, aerodynamics I guess.



I have no further comments, thank you.

Cheers
Robin

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by footie

Driver72,

Sticky will come right back at you with this video you know,

I personally have no faith in any of these videos because you never know whether they are stock or not and whether they are all running regular fuel. I have more faith in magazine results because they are indenpendent from the manufacturers and don't have an ego to uphold.

Based on power to weight and the added traction the Porsche will have from it's engine position I doubt any stock M3 will win a race from a standstill.

Hey Footie, good to hear from you again man.
Yeah, I know from car to car each is different. That wasn't the point. In the video you posted that's the 05-08 991 CS
Sticky was arguing with the OP that the new 09 CS PDK couldn't be faster. I pointed out that the old model ran 112-113 traps, same as the M3. The new one with is faster.
I posted a video showing the old convert C2S creeping away from the heavier convert. M3. But both are heavier and the old C2S was a manual which is slower too.

The other point is, I've seen and been AT the track with the C2S and watched them trap 112+ mph. The new 09 will undoubtedly be faster. And also posted the Car and Driver test where the new base Carrera accelerated faster than the M3 DCT. It's funny how he discounts professional magazine tests as being irrelevant. He couldn't get below 12.2 with his car with like $10K in mods, on DR's and with race gas but he discounts professional magazine testers as meaningless. His ignorance is hilarious.
I've also ran with 2 of the 05-08 CS myself and they were close each time.

He just think he knows all and argues anybody who has factual evidence otherwise. He uses his speculation as his argument for fact, and often even his speculation is wrong, that's what makes it even more funny.

Cheers man.

[Robin_NL]

@ Driver72:It sounds like your talking about footie ROFLOL

j/k

cheers
Robin

P.S.but no further comments in this thread from my side, because this doesn't work and it's only internet blahblahblah. Footie first needs to get his DCT fixed and then he may act like a BMW fanboy again LOL , until now he is just a bit irritating and anti //M because of that DCT problem, give both guys a break(footie & sticky)IMO.

-A person who places a R8 before a 430 Scuderia on his wishlist is just joking/irritating/100% Audi fanboy whatever.LOL So his objectivity is already way gone even though he says he still is objective about cars in general.....

And I'm not saying I'm not biased because I am(a bit //M, a bit Porsche GT3, a bit 430 Scud) and I know it.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Hey Footie, good to hear from you again man.
Yeah, I know from car to car each is different. That wasn't the point. In the video you posted that's the 05-08 991 CS
Sticky was arguing with the OP that the new 09 CS PDK couldn't be faster. I pointed out that the old model ran 112-113 traps, same as the M3. The new one with is faster.
I posted a video showing the old convert C2S creeping away from the heavier convert. M3. But both are heavier and the old C2S was a manual which is slower too.

The other point is, I've seen and been AT the track with the C2S and watched them trap 112+ mph. The new 09 will undoubtedly be faster. And also posted the Car and Driver test where the new base Carrera accelerated faster than the M3 DCT. It's funny how he discounts professional magazine tests as being irrelevant. He couldn't get below 12.2 with his car with like $10K in mods, on DR's and with race gas but he discounts professional magazine testers as meaningless. His ignorance is hilarious.
I've also ran with 2 of the 05-08 CS myself and they were close each time.

He just think he knows all and argues anybody who has factual evidence otherwise. He uses his speculation as his argument for fact, and often even his speculation is wrong, that's what makes it even more funny.

Cheers man.

I was only highlighting what sticky would have probably done if he had have been online.

We are both in agreement that the only reliable source of data is from independent magazines and when you compare their data the 997C2S Mk2 with PDK is quicker. This has always been my point when comparing the TT-RS to the M3, the supplier data (if correct) does place the two cars in the same ballpark performance wise.

Anyway I been invited back the Porsche's driving centre at Silverstone either the 23rd or 24th of this month to try out the new PDK in the Cayman and Cayman S. If I can get covered at work I will take some pictures and hopefully do a write up on the day's experience.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Anyway I been invited back the Porsche's driving centre at Silverstone either the 23rd or 24th of this month to try out the new PDK in the Cayman and Cayman S. If I can get covered at work I will take some pictures and hopefully do a write up on the day's experience.

Thoght you said you already drove a P with PDK. Or were you just telling others to drive it. That post was here. Either way I would say that strongly implies you have driven it. Which is it?

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Thoght you said you already drove a P with PDK. Or were you just telling others to drive it. That post was here. Either way I would say that strongly implies you have driven it. Which is it?

Yeah, I briefly drive a 997 PDK at the dealer's, gearbox seems to work perfectly (obivously I was looking for the problems we are all suffering and they ain't there), it's only downside in the buttons on the wheel and the shifter which are just wrong, but besides these oddities this DCT has the best software.

My comments here were more to do with the Cayman and it's new additions of PDK and an LSD. The Porsche course at Silverstone look quite demanding and should give me a good insight to how these additions have improved an already brilliant little car.

Should be fun.

[MikeG_C63_AMG]

Originally Posted by Driver72

And your points are?

1. You clearly missed the part in my post where I used my real world results running my 335i against the e63 and 05-08 Carrera S as real world evidence of the validity of the outcome of the OP's races. You on the other hand, as usual, just don't believe it and argue and attack the OP as if it isn't factual, because of course, you always know more than everybody else.

2. Sorry you can't accept the fact that a 335i with just a $500 tune on 91 Octane dynos 343 rwhp and 360 rwtq. You are only laughing at yourself inside. See dyno charts.

3. Kids did love me. Was well involved and had and have lots of friends? You

4.. You keep trying to tell me to "keep my 335i out of here"
When this is a M3 vs. topic forum. What part of that is not clear to you? Or are you as usual just going to argue that fact to and state how wrong it is.

5. Noticed you didn't comment on the video of the older Carrera S manual convertible pulling away from the M3 DCT convertible in the video. M3 DCT convertible traps at what 110 or so. Hmm the car pulling away from that looks like it would trap about 2 mph faster. That's 112 right? Oh and it was the convertible too, so the lighter more aerodynamic CS coupe would trap .5-1 mph faster. That's 112-113 right?
And just think the newer Porsche Carrera S is faster yet.
Also notice you didn't comment on how the base 09 Carrera with PDK out accelerated the M3 with DCT.
Or is that because you are now going to campaign and state that the 911 and "bringing it up" doesn't belong here either?

What really doesn't belong here is the constant arguing and hate you bring. It didn't take you long to attack me again when I posted in this thread, and it doesn't take a lot of reading in this and other threads to see all your constant attacking of others too, with consistently arrogant and wrongful information too.

Oh and if you want to see how fragile I am come meet me at my training center and back up all that big talk.

+1
Captian Fanboy is guilty of the above bold comment. You would think when you have some of the most well respected members on this forum (Swamp, etc) constantly proving him wrong he would yield. However he is drunk on the fanboy koolaid.

Here comes the C63 attacks.

[devo]

Originally Posted by spearfisher

I find that a bit surprising due to the fact that the 0-150 mph numbers break down as such:

CARRERA S PDK 26.2
E63 23.5
M3 24.3

????????????????????????
NO DRIVER SKILL INVOLVED, they are all Automated Transmissions

Where did you find these numbers?

I find it hard to believe that a PDK 911S is not quicker to 150 than the M. Didn't Car & Driver's recent road test prove the base PDK 911 w/o sport chrono to be as quick or quicker to 150 than the M?

[GnokGnik]

Yeah, a modified 335i is way faster than a M3.

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by GnokGnik

Yeah, a modified 335i is way faster than a M3.

A "modified" car of any type can beat an unmodified car with enough resources/money.

That doesnt really prove any point to say a modded 335i will beat a stock M3.

Heres some amusing videos to prove some points whenever I read people comparing a modded car to a stock car...

THIS vid is just funny as hell ...

P.S. I'd still rather keep my M3 over a faster modded 335i just as Im sure the Ferrari owner wouldnt trade his Ferrari for the modded Smart. lol

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by M3 Montreal

A "modified" car of any type can beat an unmodified car with enough resources/money.

That doesnt really prove any point to say a modded 335i will beat a stock M3.

Heres some amusing videos to prove some points whenever I read people comparing a modded car to a stock car...

THIS vid is just funny as hell ...

P.S. I'd still rather keep my M3 over a faster modded 335i just as Im sure the Ferrari owner wouldnt trade his Ferrari for the modded Smart. lol

LOL excellent. And yes the F430/Gallardo/blonde c*cks*cker anytime even if the Smart has 1000whp whatever.