Riddle me this: Eibach springs on the track

[armyav8tor]

Why do people think that Eibach springs are not sufficient for the track? They worked pretty well for me last weekend. The only time the car bottomed out was at the bottom of Hog Pen (VIR) when the left front would bottom out which a little snap steering correction will keep the rear end from coming around. Other than that, Sport Mode was perfect. I should have tried the dynamic modes but my limited experience in AutoX taught me that dynamic mode makes the car more unpredictable.

This is me in the rain a week before the VIR weekend. The purpose for going there is to do a shake down of the car before heading to the track. I also wanted to be aggressive to see the limit of my traction just in case the VIR weekend was going to be a washout since the weather had been very unpredictable. Anyway for the AutoX I used the following settings: EDC to Sport, Power on Sports Plus, Servotronics on Sport, DSC off. The reason was to use the most aggressive settings in the rain to simulate the worst condition I might encounter at VIR. It's much cheaper to eat cones than to eat Armcos.

This is me on VIR, the lap times speak for themselves with the type of tires I was running and my experience level, I had no business going that fast. But the setup I'm running works and I believe that going with coilovers would take away from what the ///M Division created. It was nice to have a relaxing drive home after the weekend with EDC on Comfort. This is why the M3 is the Ultimate Driving Machine.

Mods:
Wheels/Tires:
ZCP Style 359/ Continental ContiSportContact 5P, 255F/285R
Suspension: Eibach Pro-Kit Springs w/ e36 M3 bumpstops
Engine/Drivetrain Modifications:
AA Green Filter
AA Pulley
Performance Friction front BBK
Exhaust: Akrapovic Evolution

I'm still trying to convince my wife to let me go next time with DSC off. I'm going to honor whatever she says but I think I can break into the 2:10s with DSC off alone. I already know that I can be faster on the straights because I lifted and braked early. I discovered that my right front brake was leaking out of the nipple on the caliper and everyone told me to take it easy. I washed the wheel off and wiped down the caliper just before the session.

The story for the weekend can be found here:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654257

In conclusion, Eibach springs are the shizzzzznit! Guys, seriously, don't worry about a coilover setup. I have debunked the myth that springs are not good for the track. That myth might be true for other cars and other springs but the Eibachs are perfect for the EDC shocks and I would dare say that they are better than the stock springs because my car was never this neutral when I drove on the Nurburgring when it was stock. The stance is also perfect, and oh yeah, it rides better than stock. Now, Eibach needs to pay me some commission!!!! LOL

[LiM3y]

Who said Eibachs were insufficient for the track, whatever that means?

I am guessing they are as hard as you want for a street car, but perform well on the track. Anything else, you are going for some serious spring rates that make for a tough ride that your friends will only want to experience once!

[dcstep]

Nice VIR session.

[LateBraking]

I've seen a stock Prius and a stock 1980's Nissan pickup truck tracking, so I don't think anyone needs anything in order to track. However, I did try tracking on Eibach springs, and I felt they were too soft. I kept hitting the bump stops, even with the shortened E36 ones. I'm not sure if ZCP springs are stiffer than Eibach ones, but my friends who have tracked on ZCP alone haven't reported these issues.

[CanAutM3]

I run stock springs with EDC on the track, albeit with GC camber plates. I surely don't have an issue with the suspension and it can be plenty fast (1:56 at Mont-Tremblant). Eibachs would just make it better.

Sure, coilovers might be a good idea if you want to build a track weapon, but IMO definitely not a necessity.

I always believe that the part of the car that needs the most improvement is the one between the seat and the steering wheel !!

[Alex07M3]

Depends on what type of perfomance you want at the track , but since a stock M3 is good enough for the track , no reason why the Eibach springs would make it worst ! I went to Calabogie with my e92 M3 with EDC on Eibach and was'nt disepointed at all , never hitted the stock bump stops ! And on the street I prefer the Eibach over the stock in all EDC mode !

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by LateBraking

I've seen a stock Prius and a stock 1980's Nissan pickup truck tracking, so I don't think anyone needs anything in order to track. However, I did try tracking on Eibach springs, and I felt they were too soft. I kept hitting the bump stops, even with the shortened E36 ones. I'm not sure if ZCP springs are stiffer than Eibach ones, but my friends who have tracked on ZCP alone haven't reported these issues.

Were you hitting the bumpstops on the curbing, or in severe compressions?

Anyone know what the ZCP springs are?

[LateBraking]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

Were you hitting the bumpstops on the curbing, or in severe compressions?

Anyone know what the ZCP springs are?

Both. I bottomed on the bump stops on both the burms and in high speed/high compression corners. I don't know if anyone attends these local tracks, but my rear right would hit it going into the high speed oval at Autoclub in Fontana, then I'd bottom out on both front stops when braking for the first hard left, same track, and on that little dip on the right hand side when exiting Bus Stop going into Riverside at Buttonwillow Raceway. Had my competition package M3 on full sport mode.

Honestly though, Eibach springs are still my favorite springs for the E9X M3's. I was actually considering switching back to stock M3 bump stops, since those bump stops are engineered to be progressive whereas the E36 ones are not. I never did end up swapping just bump stops back to stock though, I just went to a coilover setup instead.

I voted option 1, since, like I said, NOTHING is a necessity for track. But I have a question for you guys tracking: Did you guys swap to E36 bump stops on your Eibach springs, or did you guys keep the stock E9X ones? Maybe I might have actually been better off with the stock ones.

[Gearhead999s]

When I have instructed in E9X M3's that have springs installed without other suspension mods,I have usually been subjected to a suspension that is crashing off the bumpstops which causes a lot of handling concerns and quite often a different line is needed that is not ideal for fast times.if you are going to be doing spring height & rate changes you need to be changing the damping rates to match the springs in order for the suspension to work properly on track.A stock e9x with or without ZCP works awfull well in stock form and is a dam good comprimise for a street driven track day car.

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by LateBraking

Both. I bottomed on the bump stops on both the burms and in high speed/high compression corners. I don't know if anyone attends these local tracks, but my rear right would hit it going into the high speed oval at Autoclub in Fontana, then I'd bottom out on both front stops when braking for the first hard left, same track, and on that little dip on the right hand side when exiting Bus Stop going into Riverside at Buttonwillow Raceway. Had my competition package M3 on full sport mode.

Honestly though, Eibach springs are still my favorite springs for the E9X M3's. I was actually considering switching back to stock M3 bump stops, since those bump stops are engineered to be progressive whereas the E36 ones are not. I never did end up swapping just bump stops back to stock though, I just went to a coilover setup instead.

I voted option 1, since, like I said, NOTHING is a necessity for track. But I have a question for you guys tracking: Did you guys swap to E36 bump stops on your Eibach springs, or did you guys keep the stock E9X ones? Maybe I might have actually been better off with the stock ones.

I retained the E9X bump-stops when switching to Eibachs. I haven't had any issues with hitting the bump stops on curbs, braking or compressions and I haven't felt any front end instability with hard braking. I am running advanced intermediate with stock everything else and a pretty hard braker judging by my brake pad consumption.

Of course, I am worried now!

[von_zoom]

Jw - Nice driving. You did a very good job. I was behind you with my "A" student demonstrating the line and tweeking some track positions for him. Actually, I used your car to visually show the variances in proceedure and position, and where he can pick up several 10ths. His times are close to sub 2.
vz

[armyav8tor]

I guess what I was trying to get at is that at our skill level, there is no point in getting a coilover system. Don't even get me started with these new coilover sleeves that seem to be all the rage because it is just one more thing to go wrong and unless you really feel the need to corner balance then it brings us back to the point that it is pointless at our skill level. I say this because the balance of this car is incredible with the Eibachs. The car is extremely neutral with the Eibachs where the stock would tend to understeer. This is the trait that I’m looking for and makes the car extremely predictable and easy to drive. I have almost no nose dive under heavy braking and I did some heavy late braking, trust me. It's almost as if the EDC is stiffening the front shocks under heavy braking because I don't see how a car can have so little nose dive. I’ve only been on two tracks, so maybe I’ll change my mind later on but for VIR, the Eibachs are perfect. As far as the shocks bottoming out, like I said, I had it happen a few times going through the compression at the bottom of Hog Pen but most times, it doesn't and when it does, it is very manageable. Did someone say curbs? I love curbs and jump on everyone that makes sense to me and I've never bottomed out, watch the VIR video on the first post. The e36 M3 bumpstop works good for me, so if it ain’t broke, I ain’t going to fix it. I’ve never had the stock bumpstop installed so I can’t give any feedback about them.

So, I guess the whole point of my post is to let people know my experience with Eibach springs. I was just reading a post in another thread where this guy was saying do it right the first time, get coilovers. Well, I did do it right the first time, I got Eibach springs. There’s no reason for us to pour money into stuff that are too advanced for our skill level because you won’t push the car hard enough to take advantage of it. All you end up with is shitty ride quality. Reminds me of that famous episode of Top Gear where Clarkson was trying to do a 10 min lap in a diesel Jag. Well, Clarkson got a 9:59 lap in on the final attempt and what did Sabine say? “I’ll do that time in a van” and she almost did. The driver mod is free.

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

Jw - Nice driving. You did a very good job. I was behind you with my "A" student demonstrating the line and tweeking some track positions for him. Actually, I used your car to visually show the variances in proceedure and position, and where he can pick up several 10ths. His times are close to sub 2.
vz

Thanks for the compliments! Which car were you in? The 991? The Z06? Just thinking of all the really fast cars. If you can give me some pointers on where I'm screwing up I would really appreciate it. I think where I was losing the most time was around Oak Tree because I feel like I'm not turning in and getting on the power early enough. I also know that I can go up the Climbing Esses faster. I had some email correspondance with JoElla yesterday, I'm pre-approved for B Group next time...

[AMPowerJ]

Did you feel like your car became unstable at the top of the backstretch before turn 14 and/or did your car's rear end feels loose and twitchy under heavy braking?

Mine did when I was at VIR on my Dinan springs.

Now that I am on coilovers it felt much more planted. I don't think coilovers are a must by any stretch; especially for a driver of my level. But there are advantages to coilovers and being able to adjust compression and rebound once you reach a certain level. Again I may never reach that level, but there is peace of mind. That is also why I have Stoptech brakes. The stock brakes will work, but Stoptechs are just that much better. Especially on tracks that demand more brakes like CMP, etc.

I believe in technology overkill. I think I remember hearing that you fly Apaches, which is wicked cool BTW. But take your Apache for instance. I bet it has some features on it you could get away without having, but they are sure nice to have when you need them.

[von_zoom]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

Thanks for the compliments! Which car were you in? The 991? The Z06? Just thinking of all the really fast cars. If you can give me some pointers on where I'm screwing up I would really appreciate it. I think where I was losing the most time was around Oak Tree because I feel like I'm not turning in and getting on the power early enough. I also know that I can go up the Climbing Esses faster. I had some email correspondance with JoElla yesterday, I'm pre-approved for B Group next time...

I was driving a race prepared E46 - white/red with a big wing. Difficult to provide useful info as I was not riding with you, merely watching to illustrate track position. Oak tree, I agree, you could do better, and it has to do with your entry line into the top level short of the tree. Attempt to "rim" the turn, rather than "V" - you do not want to turn left inorder to turn right, and that is what a tight apex into the oak tree turn complex creates. Discuss this with your next instructor at the track and spend some time working on the tree. A 1 plus mph gain out of the tree transfers all the way down the long back. Congrats with your promotion into the "Killer Bees."

I think I remember hearing that you fly Apaches, which is wicked cool BTW

If the good Lord meant it to fly, he would have given it wings
vz

[Martin_D]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

Just thinking of all the really fast cars.

Ah you missed me then I was too slow in my GT-R last year.

[Martin_D]

FWIW Leh was @ at 2.08 in his E92 and the fastest I got my E90 was a 2.10 last June.

In this car those times are extremely FAST.

Grand am prepped E92 M3 are @ 2.03/4

-Martin

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

Did you feel like your car became unstable at the top of the backstretch before turn 14 and/or did your car's rear end feels loose and twitchy under heavy braking?

Mine did when I was at VIR on my Dinan springs.

Now that I am on coilovers it felt much more planted. I don't think coilovers are a must by any stretch; especially for a driver of my level. But there are advantages to coilovers and being able to adjust compression and rebound once you reach a certain level. Again I may never reach that level, but there is peace of mind. That is also why I have Stoptech brakes. The stock brakes will work, but Stoptechs are just that much better. Especially on tracks that demand more brakes like CMP, etc.

I believe in technology overkill. I think I remember hearing that you fly Apaches, which is wicked cool BTW. But take your Apache for instance. I bet it has some features on it you could get away without having, but they are sure nice to have when you need them.

Nope, the car felt solid to me but my comfort level is pretty up there (comes with being an Apache pilot I guess :P). I know Chris was saying that my car was getting loose but that had more to do with tire pressure than anything. I checked after the 3rd session on Sunday and it was at 45 psi (hot). I took a ride in Chris' car and when I got back to my car before the 4th session, I let the air out until the pressure was at 36psi front and 37psi rear. I would call that maybe the warm tire pressure? Since the car sat for about 30 mins before I played with it. That helped a lot with the loose rear end and that combined with the 250lbs weight reduction and applying a little of Chris' racing lines that I was not supposed to use, I was able to knock off 7 secs off the time with Chris in the car. I was consistently in the 2:22s all day before that solo session.

So, I guess what we've learned here today is Eibach > Dinan... LOL! I can see the Dinan guys coming now in defense of their over priced parts. j/k (not really)

I like to play devil's advocate and I'm not trying to downplay how great coilovers are. I just want to give some love to the Eibachs because they surprised the shit out of me and that was all from reading on the forum about the stereotype that springs are crappy and ruins the car. I love my car right now and I haven't been able to stop watching that damn solo video because I am still in awe of what I was able to accomplish in one weekend at the track. Chris Thompson is the man, the learning curve was steep but man did it pay off. I can say with confidence that Eibach springs had made a positive impact on my car's performance. The most important part is that I get to keep EDC.

I've never ran track pads with the stock brakes but stock pad and stock rotor = garbage. I'm so happy with my Performance Friction brakes, I can't remember what pads they are, PF01 or PF06, but man did they make a difference. I only did the fronts, the back is completely stock and still on the same pads that did the 50 laps at the Ring. Makes you wonder what the brake distribution look like. 99% to the front and 1% to the rear!?!?!? Either way, this setup works and that's how it is going to stay. And my job might sound cool in a conversation but trust me when I say the Army has a way of taking the fun out of anything.

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

I was driving a race prepared E46 - white/red with a big wing. Difficult to provide useful info as I was not riding with you, merely watching to illustrate track position. Oak tree, I agree, you could do better, and it has to do with your entry line into the top level short of the tree. Attempt to "rim" the turn, rather than "V" - you do not want to turn left inorder to turn right, and that is what a tight apex into the oak tree turn complex creates. Discuss this with your next instructor at the track and spend some time working on the tree. A 1 plus mph gain out of the tree transfers all the way down the long back. Congrats with your promotion into the "Killer Bees."



If the good Lord meant it to fly, he would have given it wings
vz

LOL "Killer Bees", can't wait! I think I have an idea on why you call the B Group that.

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely bring it up with the next instructor. When I was riding with Chris, it felt so smooth going around Oak Tree but when I'm doing it, it felt awkward and didn't flow at all. I think it has something to do with that big ass tree being there. It's throwing me off.

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by Martin_D

FWIW Leh was @ at 2.08 in his E92 and the fastest I got my E90 was a 2.10 last June.

In this car those times are extremely FAST.

Grand am prepped E92 M3 are @ 2.03/4

-Martin

Yeah I saw Leh's time in that other thread. Which is why I've been watching my video religiously thinking, where am I going to find 7 secs?

Let out a little bit more air plus a smooth line through Oak Tree in order to go up the back straight faster. Brake later going into 14. Go up the Climbing Esses faster, and be more aggressive at South Bend. I'm definitely thinking like a Killer Bee... LOL I might have to get track insurance next time. I kid....

[AMPowerJ]

Bring your Apache to the track next time. I would like some instruction in that.

[von_zoom]

LOL "Killer Bees", can't wait! I think I have an idea on why you call the B Group that.

Years ago (I will not admit to how many) I was promoted to the B Group right after lunch, but the last run prior to lunch, the B group had many offs, plus one car to car contact. Suffice it to say, Tarheel was most upset, to the point that they were considering canceling the run sessions in B Group, but instead, put instructors in every car. We quickly were branded The Killer Bees. I always feared that may have delayed my rise to stardom - but learned it was lack of ability....

See ya at the track.

Bring your Apache to the track next time.

Ashley, as fast as your are, you do not need air time.

vz