AMS Magazine: Another Comparison, Another Victory - M3 ZCP vs. RS5, C63, B3

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by footie

Maybe you need to check out this.

Just to a fastestlaps.com comparison between the RS5 and M3 (DKG) or M3 (6MT). The link that footie found happened to be the one out of 6-7 that the RS5 won. So if RS5 is faster on one track, and the M3 is faster on the remaining 6-7, what conclusion would that lead most people to?

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by M&M

I actually do track a lot, & I have an Audi as well. Compilations of times are meaningless, we don't even know if they had the same driver. Stop being a sore loser.

There have been 3 or 4 shoot-outs where the RS5 has lost to the M3. All on the same track, same day, with the same driver. Give it up already, you can't get a more controlled test than that.

Exactly - so - four out of four magazines that compared the RS5 to the M3 went in favor of the M3. On fastestlaps.com, about 5 out of 6 or 6 out of 7 went in favor of the M3. The RS5 can win on the subjective scale, but in most objective ratings, comes in second as usual.

As with most Audi fans, their backup argument is always "yeah, but the Audi gives you more confidence in adverse weather conditions." I don't doubt that this is true, but can't think of too many people who would want to "push the envelope" on wet pavement with nice cars such as the RS5 or M3, regardless of whether it has AWD or not. Therefore, I think the whole (Audi has more everyday useability" is an overrated-concession prize to otherwise losing out on most head-to-head comparison tests. Just my opinion...

[jdgamble]

Originally Posted by footie

The point for posting the link was to show how much quicker the RS5 was to the C63. I already knew it wasn't the E92. Don't blame me for Fastestlaps getting it wrong.

Everyone assumes that the RS5 is dramatically slower than an M3 based on some of these reviews but I am trying to show that there are other occasions where the RS5 is comprehensively quicker than those main rivals.

That's a nice back-pedal, but that wasn't the point of your original one-line post. You were trying to find one single shred of evidence that an RS5 can beat an M3. You failed.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by jdgamble

That's a nice back-pedal, but that wasn't the point of your original one-line post. You were trying to find one single shred of evidence that an RS5 can beat an M3. You failed.

I don't think there is any doubt that the RS5 is A) a great car and very fun to drive; and B) very close performance wise to the M3. The inherent problem with the A4/S4/;RS4 and A5/S5/RS5 platforms is that so much weight is ahead of the front axle. As the overwhelming test results show, that is an inherent problem that hurts Audi every time against a more dynamically-balanced car like the M3.

Even Quattro, as technologically great of a system as it is, cannot repeal the laws of physics (and why, once again, for whatever Audi gains with Quattro (great all-weather handling), it loses with handling (greater tendancy for understeer, less ability to perform sudden directional changes/slalom, etc.).

This is exactly why a lot of people were skeptical of the RS5's ability to out-perform the M3 even before it came out...

[jdgamble]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

I don't think there is any doubt that the RS5 is A) a great car and very fun to drive; and B) very close performance wise to the M3. The inherent problem with the A4/S4/;RS4 and A5/S5/RS5 platforms is that so much weight is ahead of the front axle. As the overwhelming test results show, that is an inherent problem that hurts Audi every time against a more dynamically-balanced car like the M3.

Even Quattro, as technologically great of a system as it is, cannot repeal the laws of physics (and why, once again, for whatever Audi gains with Quattro (great all-weather handling), it loses with handling (greater tendancy for understeer, less ability to perform sudden directional changes/slalom, etc.).

This is exactly why a lot of people were skeptical of the RS5's ability to out-perform the M3 even before it came out...

Hey I like the RS5... I'd be very happy with that car. I almost got an S4 and I would have been happy with that car (but probably not the reliability).

What I don't understand is why people get on this forum and try to bash the M3. It's comical. Prior to my decision to go with the M3, I was on an Audi forum talking with people about the S4, and there was not ONE SINGLE M3 promoter / S4 basher on that site. I guess success breeds contempt, or something like that.

[mkoesel]

Maybe some mag should actually consider using the E93 M3 in their comparison test. You know, just to give the RS5 a fighting chance. Let the Audi guys have a win, just for once.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Maybe some mag should actually consider using the E93 M3 in their comparison test. You know, just to give the RS5 a fighting chance. Let the Audi guys have a win, just for once.

That's mean.


Best regards,
south

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by jdgamble

Hey I like the RS5... I'd be very happy with that car. I almost got an S4 and I would have been happy with that car (but probably not the reliability).

What I don't understand is why people get on this forum and try to bash the M3. It's comical. Prior to my decision to go with the M3, I was on an Audi forum talking with people about the S4, and there was not ONE SINGLE M3 promoter / S4 basher on that site. I guess success breeds contempt, or something like that.

LOL I just picked up a 2011 S4 yesterday and have been reading Audi forums.

Its incredible the BMW haters on the Audi forums and the Audi haters on the BMW forums.

What I don't understand is WHY do people even buy Audis in areas that never see snow?? Are they scared to drive in rain? If I didnt have snow here I would never ever consider an Audi. Because I want quattro for winter I picked an S4 over a 335i X drive. I wanted the newest tech and different interior from my M3.

Powerful quattros are nowhere near the excitement and fun of powerful rear wheel drives.

[FruitCake]

almost 4 years later they still can't beat BMW?
shame

[gthal]

The RS5 is a great car, no doubt, but it is clear it is not better than the M3. The looks may attract some buyers but the price will keep others away too. I have to admit, if it was materially better than the M3 performance wise, I might have been a little envious given how stunning the car looks. I love the current M3 not just because it was an amazing car when it was released but because it is still the best option in its class 3, 4 maybe 5 years later!! That is an amazing accomplishment for BMW.

If the next M3 is the car it "should" be and materially better than the E9X, it will continue the reign for many years. For all of BMW's warts, it always seems to get the M3 right.

[datbimmerdoe]

as usual...

[x838nwy]

It's weird how track time comparisons are "meaningless" to a lot of people while it is the same people who say that the M3 is the better car because it goes around the track quicker.

I'm not saying that the RS5 is a better car simply _because_ it's slower around the various tracks. Now I know it's the E93 on the Knutstrop time, but nearly 2 seconds? Anyhow, nearly all comparison test seem to go in the M3's favour and I respect that.

As someone mentioned, I am surprised how the RS5 isn't quicker than the E92 M3. They'be had all the time in the world to prepare and you can't just put it down to the ZCP cos there's no real difference between that and the non-ZCP. In all seriousness, I think they've not taken a step forward - at least tracktime-wise - from the old RS4. At least not a significant one considering the time they've spent.

To say this is typical of Audi is unfair, I feel. The R8 is a very quick car around the track (and they took their sweet time putting a V10 in it). For the RS5 I don't know what they've been spending their development time on. I feel a little sad that the next gen M3 appears to have nothing to compete with except for the current one.

FWIW, Audi seems to be steering into something of a niche-filling nightmare. As CAR magazine reports, Audi now have 35 different vehicle models and are aiming for 42 separate car ranges I fear this sort of over expansion will only dilute the breed. Oh well....

[egainer]

people ask me if I like my bmw better than my audi. I tell them I like the car better, but I like audi as a brand better. It attracts less morons.

i hate the brand bmw for what people have made it. cars are great, but the followers... are not

[bavarian19]

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by footie

Maybe you need to check out this.

Jesus, do you ever not argue for the Audi no matter what it is Footie? Seriously, why on earth are you on these forums. I know you meant to be funny but its you being the argumentative, start a flame war comments.

I have respect for Audi, but not for the way you shamelessly attempt to start wars. Comments before yours are dead on: they are always last to the party, with the ugliest date but make the most noise about how beautiful their date is and how ugly the dates of everyone else are.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Kiemyster]

Originally Posted by x838nwy

FWIW, Audi seems to be steering into something of a niche-filling nightmare. As CAR magazine reports, Audi now have 35 different vehicle models and are aiming for 42 separate car ranges I fear this sort of over expansion will only dilute the breed. Oh well....

But what do you think bmw is doing? just as guilty. But i admire the way BMW always pulls it off. Without a doubt, BMW's X line is the best at all SAV/SAC categories. BMW's M models never have managed to be beaten. Their Z models are quite iconic. flagship models like the 7 and 5 are notoriously excellent. And the 3 has always set the standards.

I can go in the BMW dealership and proudly back every car built to date. i cant find ANY other dealership where i could back even 1/3 the cars for sale.

BMW knows what they are doing, audi is really clueless if you ask me. I really dont give them credit for anything... call me an ass. I ignore them... but thats probably because all my friends are ignorant audi die hard fans so you know how that is. fanboy vs fanboy... no one gets anywhere. we do come to agreement, the only reason they like them is because they look "mean" and bmw's look to reserved. good for them

[M&M]

Originally Posted by x838nwy

It's weird how track time comparisons are "meaningless" to a lot of people while it is the same people who say that the M3 is the better car because it goes around the track quicker.....

No, no, no, no track times are most certainly not meaningless. Especially not to me, I do trackdays every couple of months.

But tracktimes are meaningless when not done in the same conditions or same driver. A compilation of times is largely meaningless. A shoot-out done on the same day is VERY relevant.

[jdgamble]

Originally Posted by M3 Montreal

LOL I just picked up a 2011 S4 yesterday and have been reading Audi forums.

Its incredible the BMW haters on the Audi forums and the Audi haters on the BMW forums.

What I don't understand is WHY do people even buy Audis in areas that never see snow?? Are they scared to drive in rain? If I didnt have snow here I would never ever consider an Audi. Because I want quattro for winter I picked an S4 over a 335i X drive. I wanted the newest tech and different interior from my M3.

Powerful quattros are nowhere near the excitement and fun of powerful rear wheel drives.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. On the S4 forum, there were no M3 owners who would start arguments by bashing the S4. Yet on this forum, there are all kinds of non-M3 owners bashing the M3.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by stingray23

Is amazing how Audi is always last to the ballgame which gives them a huge advantage and they STILL cant come out on top. It happens to all their cars.

Didn't C&D pick the S4 > 335i?

If I live more north I'd consider a Quattro. Don't see the point in 'hating' (man, that's such an overrused word!) either brilliant marque.

I like to see the M3 come out on top but I wouldn't get my knickers in a knot if the RS5 won a comparo. And didn't EVO pick the RS4 > M3 in 2007?

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by gthal

The RS5 is a great car, no doubt, but it is clear it is not better than the M3. The looks may attract some buyers but the price will keep others away too. I have to admit, if it was materially better than the M3 performance wise, I might have been a little envious given how stunning the car looks.

Agreed: I do think that Walter de Silva pulled off a fantastic design w/ the A5/S5/RS5.

[warzilla]

First, I have total respect for Audi products. My dream car is the R8 v10 right now. I would take that over any other car if I have that money to spend (yes even over a Ferrari, Lambo, etc).

I also come from a long history with Audis, having owned or driven many of their cars in the last 15 years including the Coupe Quattro, A4s, S4s, S6s, S8s, A6 4.2, RS4, RS6, TT, and R8 (only the V8 version).

I live in the Northeast, where we do get snow and all sorts of crappy weather.

I only started buying the BMW brand, but I must say that I would prefer the drive of BMW's rear-wheel drive, sport driven cars, over Audi's right now. Even in the snow (with a good set of winter tires). To me, the drive-ability/sportness of BMWs are just better then Audi right now. After driving Quattro for many years, I totally dig the rear-wheel drive aspects of cars like the M3.

So while the RS5 is still a great car, and lets be honest, its one hot-looking car, - it will never surpass the M3 but maybe match it in certain criteria. For the M3 to do so well against a new model is a great testament to BMW, no matter how you try to spin the 'which car is better argument'.

Now if BMW can only build a R8 fighter.....

[ChinoOrtega]

^ I'm with you, BMW should make it's own supercar, the new M1 or something along the lines, I've seen plenty of prototypes, but they never make the cut