Why the E92 M3 is a better choice than Carrera 2S in the States.

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I think the number could be as large as 2 seconds per minute on a fast track.

This depends on how good the OEM street tire you are comparing it against is. I think the PS2s make almost as much grip as a Pilot sport cup, but the Cups have the advantage of taking to heat better (so they will not get greasy by the middle of a hard 'Ring lap). At a place like the Ring where there are stretches of long straightaway (no cornering, so no tire difference) I'd say about a 1-1.5 sec/lap vs. a PS2. At a more traditional circuit (Infinion, for example) probably close to 2 seconds per minute.

[e36jakeo]

This has been an intersting debate on LSD vs none and M3 vs 911. When track-driving cars with close to 400 HP you can spin the unweighted wheel even when exiting a 3rd gear, 65 MPH corner (turn 2 Infinion) and lose a LOT of acceleration (5 MPH or more by the next corner). Then there is the "trusty" feel of having the traction of an LSD under you. It allows you to do things in a more consistent manner (since both wheels act as a unit) such as trail-braking and feeding in power on corner exits. I went from a stock 25% LSD on my E36 M3 to a variable ramp (from 30% to 90%) race unit and have been amazed by the advantages offerred even by going to a strong lock up. The variable ramp (which the E92 M3 has a version of) allows you to control the amount of slip in the rear, and thus tighten or widen the line with the throttle. Yes, it takes skill to understand how and when to use it, but there is great satisfaction in getting it right and having it pay dividends with your lap times (or even doing U-turns on the street)

Since the 911 has about 65% of its weight over the rear wheels (which increases to maybe 75% when weight transfers to the rear upon accelerating out of a corner) the LSD is less imporant for traction than in the M3 that has a 50/50 weight distribution. However it still provides the advantages I mentioned above. The 997 911 is a great car and is terrific looking. However I am pretty sure if you race a track 911 and track M3 with similar power-to-weight ratios the M3 will be faster simply because it has more balanced handling. Having the engine in the rear inherantly has limitations in physics that cannot be overcome. The M3 can be set up to be stable, yet tossable, and you can go in deep and accelerate out early. You don't need to drive around the M3's limitations like you do for the 911. It would be a close race, but I think most racers would agree the M3 would have the edge.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

This has been an intersting debate on LSD vs none and M3 vs 911. When track-driving cars with close to 400 HP you can spin the unweighted wheel even when exiting a 3rd gear, 65 MPH corner (turn 2 Infinion) and lose a LOT of acceleration (5 MPH or more by the next corner). Then there is the "trusty" feel of having the traction of an LSD under you. It allows you to do things in a more consistent manner (since both wheels act as a unit) such as trail-braking and feeding in power on corner exits. I went from a stock 25% LSD on my E36 M3 to a variable ramp (from 30% to 90%) race unit and have been amazed by the advantages offerred even by going to a strong lock up. The variable ramp (which the E92 M3 has a version of) allows you to control the amount of slip in the rear, and thus tighten or widen the line with the throttle. Yes, it takes skill to understand how and when to use it, but there is great satisfaction in getting it right and having it pay dividends with your lap times (or even doing U-turns on the street)

Since the 911 has about 65% of its weight over the rear wheels (which increases to maybe 75% when weight transfers to the rear upon accelerating out of a corner) the LSD is less imporant for traction than in the M3 that has a 50/50 weight distribution. However it still provides the advantages I mentioned above. The 997 911 is a great car and is terrific looking. However I am pretty sure if you race a track 911 and track M3 with similar power-to-weight ratios the M3 will be faster simply because it has more balanced handling. Having the engine in the rear inherantly has limitations in physics that cannot be overcome. The M3 can be set up to be stable, yet tossable, and you can go in deep and accelerate out early. You don't need to drive around the M3's limitations like you do for the 911. It would be a close race, but I think most racers would agree the M3 would have the edge.

A very nice addition to the discussion. Some novel points not yet made. I think I see and agree with your point that there is a bit more inherent potential in a slightly to heavily modded M3 compared to a similarly modded 911 based on simple physics - weight balance. So here then is the key question, perhaps one that can be answered by the serious followers of motorsport racing. When modified M3s compete against similarly modded 911s which car has prevailed most often? Of course I realize that the answer may be too clouded by other factors such as driver skill, other confounding vehicle factors, etc.

[eightonezero]

I'm getting in this conversation late, but just wanted to say that I would rather have an M series than a Porsche anyday. Porsche just screams "Look at me, I have a prescription to Viagra."

[eightonezero]

Originally Posted by footie

Being new to this site and don't understand why Ruff is receiving such remarks and to be truthful I don't want to know.

I am a bit shocked at how some people seem to be fascinated by figures, not to be personal but it does seen to be more an American thing than anywhere else. This fascination with how quick a car is on the ring amazes me and make me laugh as well.

Let me ask a question, how many racing drivers are on this forum or how many believe they are able to drive a car to it's ability?

I have sampled quite a few different cars on different trackdays including the 997S, Boxsters, Z4s and E46 M3 to name a few and it would surprise you all to hear that the 997S is without a doubt the hardest car of the lot to string more than two corners together well, it's that rear bias weight which controls everything, whether entering and leaving a corner and this is regardless of whether it has a LSD or not. There is the rewards to be had with the 911 but like my question says, you have to be a bloody good driver to ever feel the need for a LSD so why get hung up on something it doesn't have.

If I was asked which car would I prefer to own out of the E92 M3 and the 997S then the answer would be a simple one, the M3 as it's much easier to drive quickly and because of this will be the more entertaining to own. Surely that is all that matters is it not.

Well said. I"ve seen plenty of "Inferior" cars smoke Porsches and Ferraris on race tracks. A lot of it is driver ability and how big your balls are.

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

A very nice addition to the discussion. Some novel points not yet made. I think I see and agree with your point that there is a bit more inherent potential in a slightly to heavily modded M3 compared to a similarly modded 911 based on simple physics - weight balance. So here then is the key question, perhaps one that can be answered by the serious followers of motorsport racing. When modified M3s compete against similarly modded 911s which car has prevailed most often? Of course I realize that the answer may be too clouded by other factors such as driver skill, other confounding vehicle factors, etc.

I have watched E36 m3's with Euro motors race against GT3 race cars and most who knew about the races said the M3's handling advantage made them hard to beat.

Here is a 1:51 lap at Infinion to illustrate my point on turn 2 (the first right hand corner). If you want until the end you find out what happens if you try to put the power down TOO soon with a strong LSD . . .

[eightonezero]

On most tracks in the US, the better handling vehicle will always have the advantage. The only tracks that come to mind where power really has an advantage, are Daytona and Road America. Everything else is relatively "tight" for cars.