C63 Revealed

[E36325is]

Yeah the C63 is a torque monster but without a much needed LSD! So you can tell what kind of audience Merc is aiming at: Mustang owners. The interior design is nice but judging by the quality of the plastic used in the new C, the C63 interior will just be as plasticky.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by E36325is

Yeah the C63 is a torque monster but without a much needed LSD! So you can tell what kind of audience Merc is aiming at: Mustang owners. The interior design is nice but judging by the quality of the plastic used in the new C, the C63 interior will just be as plasticky.

There is a sport package you can get that comes with a LSD.

[E36325is]

Originally Posted by Epacy

There is a sport package you can get that comes with a LSD.

Probably but it is standard with the E92 M3...

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by E36325is

Probably but it is standard with the E92 M3...

Not probably, it is. Furthermore, you can't say "but without a much needed LSD". You can get it.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by E36325is

Yeah the C63 is a torque monster but without a much needed LSD! So you can tell what kind of audience Merc is aiming at: Mustang owners. The interior design is nice but judging by the quality of the plastic used in the new C, the C63 interior will just be as plasticky.

I'm not so sure it will be bad quality by looking at the pics....

[Just_me]

Im sure the interior in C63 has high quality but the design is not my taste.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by Epacy

There is a sport package you can get that comes with a LSD.

That is significant. I cannot think of another AMG under $100,000 that has an LSD available.

AMG is serious.
I used to own a C32 AMG, and while it had great power, it handled poorly in comparison to the M3. It was like night and day when I dumped the C for the M. But it seems AMG has gone beyond its past formula of mating a high power notor to what essentially is an unchanged chassis.

One thing that really ticked me off when I had the C32 was MB's release of the C230 "sport" that had essentially the same body enhancements as on the C32. The fact you could buy an identical looking car (except for the wheels and exhaust) for over $20k less did not help the already dismal resale of the C32, that's for sure.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by ILC32

That is significant. I cannot think of another AMG under $100,000 that has an LSD available.

AMG is serious.
I used to own a C32 AMG, and while it had great power, it handled poorly in comparison to the M3. It was like night and day when I dumped the C for the M. But it seems AMG has gone beyond its past formula of mating a high power notor to what essentially is an unchanged chassis.

One thing that really ticked me off when I had the C32 was MB's release of the C230 "sport" that had essentially the same body enhancements as on the C32. The fact you could buy an identical looking car (except for the wheels and exhaust) for over $20k less did not help the already dismal resale of the C32, that's for sure.

You made some good points there, especially about the release of the "sport". That would REALLY piss me off.

[E36325is]

Originally Posted by hks786

I'm not so sure it will be bad quality by looking at the pics....

Well go check out the W204 interior in the showroom and u will probably understand what I mean... pics are deceiving.

[E36325is]

Originally Posted by ILC32

That is significant. I cannot think of another AMG under $100,000 that has an LSD available.

AMG is serious.
I used to own a C32 AMG, and while it had great power, it handled poorly in comparison to the M3. It was like night and day when I dumped the C for the M. But it seems AMG has gone beyond its past formula of mating a high power notor to what essentially is an unchanged chassis.

One thing that really ticked me off when I had the C32 was MB's release of the C230 "sport" that had essentially the same body enhancements as on the C32. The fact you could buy an identical looking car (except for the wheels and exhaust) for over $20k less did not help the already dismal resale of the C32, that's for sure.

Yeah and Mercedes made it worse by installing the C32 engine into Chrysler cars!

[E36325is]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Not probably, it is. Furthermore, you can't say "but without a much needed LSD". You can get it.

Yes you're right it is only an OPTION for the C63.

[carnuts3]

I hope I don't appear to be presumptuous, but I think I speak for many car lovers when I say that we are not looking for bragging rights, just a great looking, classy sport-sedan to drive everyday. Yes, everyday driving - side streets, stop & go traffic, cruising the highway, etc... Certainly not interested in lapping the Nurburgring anytime soon! This is not to say that performance and driving fast, isn't a good thing - cause it is. Let me also say that I am a big fan of the M3. In fact, I have a deposit down on a E90 M3 since 7/05. Why? Styling, performance, and handling for the price - oh, and the M badge.

However, after reading about some of the new cars coming out over the next couple of years, I am less inclined to criticize (as I have in the past) and more inclined to want to test drive some of the competition before going forward with my M3 purchase (i.e. C63, RS4 and CTS-V). From what I've seen and read, the competition (current and near future) has vastly improved and appear to have the looks, poise, power and driving dynamics to satisfy my needs. As some have said, the M is not as dominant as it was just a few years back. For the M fan this is not so good news. But for the car fan this is great news.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by carnuts3

I hope I don't appear to be presumptuous, but I think I speak for many car lovers when I say that we are not looking for bragging rights, just a great looking, classy sport-sedan to drive everyday. Yes, everyday driving - side streets, stop & go traffic, cruising the highway, etc... Certainly not interested in lapping the Nurburgring anytime soon! This is not to say that performance and driving fast, isn't a good thing - cause it is. Let me also say that I am a big fan of the M3. In fact, I have a deposit down on a E90 M3 since 7/05. Why? Styling, performance, and handling for the price - oh, and the M badge.

However, after reading about some of the new cars coming out over the next couple of years, I am less inclined to criticize (as I have in the past) and more inclined to want to test drive some of the competition before going forward with my M3 purchase (i.e. C63, RS4 and CTS-V). From what I've seen and read, the competition (current and near future) has vastly improved and appear to have the looks, poise, power and driving dynamics to satisfy my needs. As some have said, the M is not as dominant as it was just a few years back. For the M fan this is not so good news. But for the car fan this is great news.

Yeah some good points you made there. Totally agree with you...

[2002 Tii]

Originally Posted by carnuts3

I hope I don't appear to be presumptuous, but I think I speak for many car lovers when I say that we are not looking for bragging rights, just a great looking, classy sport-sedan to drive everyday. Yes, everyday driving - side streets, stop & go traffic, cruising the highway, etc... Certainly not interested in lapping the Nurburgring anytime soon! This is not to say that performance and driving fast, isn't a good thing - cause it is. Let me also say that I am a big fan of the M3. In fact, I have a deposit down on a E90 M3 since 7/05. Why? Styling, performance, and handling for the price - oh, and the M badge.

However, after reading about some of the new cars coming out over the next couple of years, I am less inclined to criticize (as I have in the past) and more inclined to want to test drive some of the competition before going forward with my M3 purchase (i.e. C63, RS4 and CTS-V). From what I've seen and read, the competition (current and near future) has vastly improved and appear to have the looks, poise, power and driving dynamics to satisfy my needs. As some have said, the M is not as dominant as it was just a few years back. For the M fan this is not so good news. But for the car fan this is great news.

It's nice to see someone bring sense and intelligence to these tiring bias arguments.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by southlight

Man, do I love critics with little background.
The R8 had a "famous" test in german sportauto with some disappointing test results. Maybe everybody's expectations are too high for the R8. It's not a wonder car at all. It's just a good Gallardo based Audi at a quite attractive price, they didn't reinvent the wheel...and there is a car that will match the driving dynamics of the R8 - it will be the M3!

Best regards, south

South, whats with the personal attacks, it's unbecoming of you. "Little background." Come on, you have better arguments than that. Does that mean I don't always sing praises to the BMW choir even though I am huge BMW fan. I just state the facts as I see them. Car Mag, for what it's worth, basically says, in not so many words, that the new M3 is soft compared to it's predecessor. Not a good sign. Steved mention how BMW kept talking about efficient dynamics or whatever. They are introducing the M3 for goodness sake, not the hydrogen 7. Again not a good sign at all. It appears BMW is trying to down play the performance of this car and sell it to the masses as the GT car that it may be. Hope not. Maybe they are going to leave the raw driving experience to a future M1. South, speaking of "background," do you really think the porky e92 M3 will "match" the mid engine R8, honestly? I hope your right and not just singing to the faithful. Does your background also lead you to believe the e92 M3 will match the Cayman and Lotus and have brakes that match any of the Porsches? The M3 is going to be an awesome all around car and the first on my list but I think we need to be realistic about it's capabilities given it's dimensions and specs. South, keep up the good work, you are invaluable to this forum.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Uhhh, no, based on lap times and many, many real world races in both a straight line and on track. Objective, not subjective. Nice try though

sdiver68, I like your response and love how the 335 is doing in comparison to it's competition. As an all around sports car, I just don't think it's in the same class as the RS4, due to it's lack of LSD and V8. However, for the money, the 335 is a much better bargain but the G37 is probably the best pure performance bargain in this class, not counting the Vette, which is easily the best performance bargain in any class.

[rpa]

I'm loving all these M3 alternatives.

My hope is that the powers that be at BMW see the half dozen or so legitimate competitors to the M3 and say to themselves "wow, if we price the M3 more than the high 50s our sales are going to bomb".

[heyimsexy]

long time reader, first time poster here...


I've been a bimmer fan all my life, but I worry for the M3 lately with cars like this C63 coming. I'm an MB tech and I get drive a lot of the new 63 AMGs, and the instant torque on those cars is amazing. You really do need the traction control on those cars (and you CAN fully turn it off, just need to get into the service menu and set the car to dyno mode...i dont recommend it though haha) or else you'll just be burning tires. Around 150 ft lbs of extra torque is alot, shit my e36 engine only makes 180ish haha. The thing that impresses me most about the new breed of AMGs is how they just don't stop pulling, they're all like rocketships...even the damn R63.

I think its weird that the new 204 C Class has an optional manual trans but the AMG is automatic only...

Mercedes interiors a far ahead of BMW's in my opinion.

A little off topic, but if any of you have the chance to drive the new S65 AMG, be prepared for a life changing experience.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by ruff

sdiver68, I like your response and love how the 335 is doing in comparison to it's competition. As an all around sports car, I just don't think it's in the same class as the RS4, due to it's lack of LSD and V8. However, for the money, the 335 is a much better bargain but the G37 is probably the best pure performance bargain in this class, not counting the Vette, which is easily the best performance bargain in any class.

Fair enough

Personally, I feel about FI engines the way you feel about V8's...

I don't believe the G37 is a bigger bargain, though I am a fan of the upcoming GT-R and former 2x Infiniti owner. For the $5K price difference, you don't get FI with its easy power upgrades nor the German road feel.

The lack of optional LSD is a huge miss imho, granted. The argument usually made here is that Quaife does have 1 available, about $2K installed, and the Cayman S does not have one either. But both of those arguments are weak.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Fair enough

Personally, I feel about FI engines the way you feel about V8's...

I don't believe the G37 is a bigger bargain, though I am a fan of the upcoming GT-R and former 2x Infiniti owner. For the $5K price difference, you don't get FI with its easy power upgrades nor the German road feel.

The lack of optional LSD is a huge miss imho, granted. The argument usually made here is that Quaife does have 1 available, about $2K installed, and the Cayman S does not have one either. But both of those arguments are weak.

Good post. The G37 cost about the same as the 328 and will easily outperform it. The Cayman S seems to overcome the lack of LSD better than the 335 due to it's reduced torque and mid engine design. If the C63 didn't have an LSD it would be a joke. Massive amounts of torque and no LSD is for those who want to impress friends with burning rubber rather than with real world performance in the twisties. IMO, The 335 doesn't need more power until it gets an LSD to put the power to the ground. Put in an LSD and the skies the limit.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by ruff

South, whats with the personal attacks, it's unbecoming of you. "Little background." Come on, you have better arguments than that. Does that mean I don't always sing praises to the BMW choir even though I am huge BMW fan. I just state the facts as I see them. Car Mag, for what it's worth, basically says, in not so many words, that the new M3 is soft compared to it's predecessor. Not a good sign. Steved mention how BMW kept talking about efficient dynamics or whatever. They are introducing the M3 for goodness sake, not the hydrogen 7. Again not a good sign at all. It appears BMW is trying to down play the performance of this car and sell it to the masses as the GT car that it may be. Hope not. Maybe they are going to leave the raw driving experience to a future M1. South, speaking of "background," do you really think the porky e92 M3 will "match" the mid engine R8, honestly? I hope your right and not just singing to the faithful. Does your background also lead you to believe the e92 M3 will match the Cayman and Lotus and have brakes that match any of the Porsches? The M3 is going to be an awesome all around car and the first on my list but I think we need to be realistic about it's capabilities given it's dimensions and specs. South, keep up the good work, you are invaluable to this forum.

First of all let me say two things. I wanna thank you that you advised me of your reply here on GCZ. I did overlook your post here. Furthemore I wanna apologize for the insult. It wasn't meant that way (the little background referred to the information you gave in the post) but I must clearly say that you had to understand it as an insult. I'm sorry.

On Topic:
I did reread your original statement and still can't follow the points entirely.
So let me try a spec comparison between M3 and R8:

The R8 has a V8 with 420HP and had a weight of 1595kg in sport auto Supertest (which measures with full tank but without driver/luggage of course). This makes ~1640 kg EU weight.
On the other side the M3, you know V8 with 420HP and a EU weight of 1655kg (hope thats true!). Advantage of the R8 is the mid engine, disadvantage is the AWD. Please no further general AWD discussion, I think we all agree that on the Nürburgring the drivetrain loss of the AWD is a disadvantage.

Furthermore the R8 did the Sportauto's lane change test (110m) at 136 km/h. The same speed achieved the 335i on 17" Bridgestone Potenza, the 335i also managed to do the 36m slalom only 2km/h slower than R8.

So I don't see big differences at all. I can't claim that the M3 will be better than the R8, but to ask your question: Yes, it will match the R8.

I'm not sure about Cayman nor about Lotus. Cayman should be a real good handling car, but doesn't have as much power as the M3 has. On a very twisty road, both Cayman and Lotus should be more agile.
I won't comment much on the brakes. That's the only point I'm somewhat disappointed on the M3. Although they should be very powerful, I have little doubts about their durability.

Best regards, south

[southlight]

Originally Posted by JackHollywood

omg south , next you will talk us into believing the m3 beats the 997tt...please mate your blind freddy !!

I am providing my opinion based on some facts. What do you have to share other than insults?

Best regards, south