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07-27-2007, 12:38 PM | #1 |
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M Division superseded by it's competitors
It's time to end the denial and excuses. The brakes aren't track worthy. The steering isn't up to snuff. M engineers wasted so much time developing servotronics, M drive and other electronic garbage that only diminish the driving experience. The M Division has lost their focus. The new M3 is a very good car. What it appears not to be is a great car. This is a shame. If the M division would have spent time and money on brakes, steering and DI and forgot about the electronic garbage, the reviews and the car would of been exemplary. Maybe the only way left to get steering feel back in the M3 is to order it without M drive to avoid servotronics. Leave the electronic gadgets for the 335 proceed commuters. Make them think it actually improves their performance. This is suppose to be an M car worthy of the track. Hats off to Audi. The overpriced mid engine R8 is a killer car with performance numbers to back it up, even with the heavy drive train sapping all wheel drive. Give credit to the AMG boys. If the torque monster C63 handles a lick, like they say it does, watch out, especially at 63k. AMG has refocussed on handling and brakes, something the M division use to be respected for. And Porsche appears ready to introduce DI accross their entire engine line up including their high reving motors. PAG will also be introducing their version of DCT. Everyone should drive the under powered, and over priced Cayman S just once. It can set a new standard for driving nirvana. Why BMW doesn't develop a mid engine car like the M1 is beyond me. The M3 is still going to be a performance bargain but it is already struggling with it's its competition and it has yet to be released. What will become of the M3 vs it's competitors 3 or 4 years into it's life cycle? I believe it will be a depreciation nightmare, particulary, if the starting price is in the 60s. I would have gladly spent well into the 60s for a stripper M3 that had excellent brakes, steering feel and DI.
Last edited by ruff; 07-27-2007 at 02:00 PM.. |
07-27-2007, 12:47 PM | #3 | |
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What you're telling is more of a commentary and a quite polemic one. Featuring DI read my post in the other thread...in the meantime I will check the Porsche DI technology... Best regards, south |
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07-27-2007, 01:12 PM | #4 | |
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I just think M focuses way to much on electronic aids, which started with the E60 M5. I did read your good information on DI in the other thread. I believe the M boys have the R&D talent to introduce some form of DI into this engine, if they would have only made it a priority. And the brakes, what can you say about brakes with track pads that fade quickly. Would you have gladly paid well into the 60s for a stripper M3 with better brakes, steering feel and DI technology? I know you appreciate the archaic driving experience of 6MT cars as well. If you find out more information on Porsche DI technology let me know. Thanks. |
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07-27-2007, 01:19 PM | #5 | |
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07-27-2007, 01:22 PM | #6 |
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07-27-2007, 01:28 PM | #7 | |
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07-27-2007, 01:33 PM | #8 | |
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Ruff, I understand your post, and its direct relationship with the somewhat under-performing report from the reporters/journalist thus far. I find myself wondering a times exactly where your thoughts wander to, but then I am often reminded of the E46 M3 days as well. It seems to me that the E46 went through a rash of criticism only to prove the skeptics and cynics wrong. True that the dynamics of the playing field has changed significantly, and none of us as of the moment truly know how the E9x M3 will fair against the competition: C63 AMG, RS4, IS-F, etc. My guess is only time will tell. Have the engineers lost focus- I don't know. Does BMW have what it takes to respond should they find the M3 wanting with respect to the competition- I would want believe the answer is yes. It almost the story of the regular 3 series, first it created a segment, then there were series of assaults and it just made the 3 series better. The danger with this analogy is how much of a damage will that have on BMW if the competition proves to be ahead of it? Are they willing to take that chance- I don't know. But I do understand your frustration, considering that I am looking at this car as a potential new car. regards |
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07-27-2007, 01:50 PM | #9 | |
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Now, things would have been so much easier if all of the potential alternatives,C63, IS-F, RS5, GT-R were all here at this time so that we can look at the data and drive them and arrive at a decision. But they are not, and they won't be for another year, but so won't the M3! So, that's why I want to wait until Spring/Summer to see where things are. By then, we should also get some valuable feedback from the European M3 owners...Regardless, in the end, it’s just a car, and whatever one ends up buying, one can sell if one doesn’t like it... |
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07-27-2007, 02:05 PM | #10 | |
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07-27-2007, 02:09 PM | #11 |
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No, the previous M3s never had the competition. Now they have it, the next M3 will be able to be head and shoulders above it, because this time around, the E92 has been in development during the RS4/RS5/C63 development process.
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07-27-2007, 02:10 PM | #12 | |
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07-27-2007, 02:16 PM | #13 | |
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A Porsche 997s (and in Verona ,my city there are hundreds around) starts at 93.000 euro...I could continue.. Be happy, the M3 needs only time to show his potentiality. Time. Time, and time....But for sure in Germany the famous magazine Sport Auto, the best one for sport cars, will make a full test around the Ring in less than two months.This will solve most of the enigma:-) bye |
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07-27-2007, 02:19 PM | #14 | ||
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And just because the competition is closing the gap is no reason to lament over the supposed downfall of the M division. The expectations some people have for this car are just plain unbelievable. If you want a "purer" M3 experience, hold out for the CSL. |
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07-27-2007, 02:20 PM | #15 | |
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I meant "luky",not like... sorry...My English is poor... |
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07-27-2007, 02:29 PM | #16 | |
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According to Porsche's website the DI works with an injection pressure of up to 120bar (1740psi), for the second generation spray form DI anyway a injection pressure of 200bar (2900psi) is needed. So technically it's a first generation DI! We talked already about the brakes some time ago, they're a letdown. No excuses indeed... Don't know what you mean with my liking for the 6MT? Do you think I don't like progress generally (DI for example) because I'm favouring a MT? Best regards, south |
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07-27-2007, 02:31 PM | #17 | |
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07-27-2007, 03:13 PM | #19 |
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I don't have much to say except..I only agree with you 50%. The M3 may not be so stunning as the last gen e46 in terms of complete performance domination in the price bracket, but it's still a great car. I already know in my heart (and based on many comparisons) That the e9x series M3 is going to be better then the current RS4 in performance. I have my doubts about whether it'll be better than a C63, but then so what? does .1 or .2 second difference really make or break a car? The only thing I am REALLY worried about is the steering feel. I don't care if its the best handling car in the world, if it doesnt feel heavy and solid, then to me its not a sports car.
So as i've been sayng time and time again, just wait til u can test drive it |
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07-27-2007, 03:27 PM | #20 |
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Before I even started looking at these Forums I used to LOVE BMW's with out looking at performance, handling, gadgets, technical stuff, numbers, competition..ect..I used to buy them for the way the look, feel...how they made you feel part of it...for being the ultimate driving machine!
After a few months of reading diferent post, reviews, commments, frustrations,expectations..ect, I started not to like the car, in the back of my head I was... "this car is not good"..But then again I went back to the days were I used to drive and open the sunroof, hit the gas...feel the g's, and be like...Damn I love this car!! I have decided to not take reviews and opinions so serious...just know that there are cars out there that are better than what I got or same...but I still drive a BMW and proud of it. It could be that the E46 is better than the E92..Oh wait a minute...the E36 was better..Oh wait a minute..the E30!! Man! they are all good cars...F...the competition... I truly respect everybodys opinions and reviews (not trying to start a war here)...But to the BMW fans it will always be a BMW. Regards and enjoy your weekend... |
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07-27-2007, 03:45 PM | #21 | ||
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Yes and no
Your sentiments are similar to an earlier post I made, however with an optimistic twist on it, which I really think is easily there and easy to make.
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If the base price comes in below $60k USD and we continue to get feats like out accelerating the R8 to 200 km/hr as well as very low 8:00 ring times (besting the Carerra S and R8) I still think the car will be a huge winner and class leader. Lastly buy a nice sexy big brake kit and be extremely happy. I am not calling anything yet, contests, final verdit, unknown specs., etc. I am just keeping an open mind and longing for that test drive as well. |
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07-27-2007, 05:31 PM | #22 |
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Ruff, In regards to your Comment about "R8 being over priced", I completely disagree. Audi designed a completely new mid engine sports car, with the looks, performance and the feeling that only Italian exotics costing more than twice the price can match. And by the sales figures I'm not the only one who thinks this car is very fairly priced as the waiting list is over a year now.
I underestand your frustration about the M cars losing their edginess due to electronic assistance but BMW is not the only manufacturer guilty of this. Today's 997 has all sorts of electronic BS for suspension, and if you want an LSD (no not that kind!) you have to move to Europe and get the "sports option". My take is this; people like us do not constitute the target market even in the sports car catagory. You want proof, drive down the streets of Southern Florida or California where half of Ferrari and Porsche production is being sold and look who's buying these cars. BMW is no different, they have to answer to share holders not to a minority group. Now, you want to hear the best part; They will over charge people like us by offering "light versions" of the same car which they just sold by tens of thousands and made tons of money by removing all the electronic gadgetry adding a couple of weight saving elements. So now everybody is happing especially the clever car companies. |
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