BMW adds 5w30 to M engines oil list

[Ronnydashore]

I am not an engineer but purely reading oil temps is hardly a way to guage if an oil is doing a good job under heavy track use. The temp sensor readings and flow to the oil cooler may be better due to lighter viscosity and less pumping losses and friction, however what about the temps at the bearings themselves where it matters or at other high wear parts that are not measured directly. There can easily and often be an increased in heat due to less protection on high moving or high pressure areas such as bearings with no indication or even lower oil temps.

I still think its a dangerous game to recommend to a broad audience to take it to the track with 0w40.

And to do this to save a few bucks or 60 bucks per oil change is ridiculous!

Daily driving however I think everyone agrees if you putz along and never seen 210 degrees on the guage than any oil virtually is fine so long as it holds pressure

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Ronnydashore

I am not an engineer but purely reading oil temps is hardly a way to guage if an oil is doing a good job under heavy track use. The temp sensor readings and flow to the oil cooler may be better due to lighter viscosity and less pumping losses and friction, however what about the temps at the bearings themselves where it matters or at other high wear parts that are not measured directly. There can easily and often be an increased in heat due to less protection on high moving or high pressure areas such as bearings with no indication or even lower oil temps.

I still think its a dangerous game to recommend to a broad audience to take it to the track with 0w40.

And to do this to save a few bucks or 60 bucks per oil change is ridiculous!

Daily driving however I think everyone agrees if you putz along and never seen 210 degrees on the guage than any oil virtually is fine so long as it holds pressure

I partially agree -- an oil pressure gauge is definitely a requirement. If the 0w40 maintains the same oil pressure as the TWS (I suspect it does), then you can safely use it. The fact that BMW says any LL-01 is now acceptable leads me to believe that you will not have problems maintaining sufficient oil pressure even under track conditions, as others have mentioned earlier in this thread.

Mobil 1 0w40 is an extremely stout oil. I think many of you underestimate just how good it is. M1 0w40 is used straight out of the bottle in many spec-racing series. It is FF for many supercars and is considered Mobil's halo product. You won't find a better off-the-shelf oil.

I also look at it this way: even Ferrari is spec'ing 5w40 in their cars now, and they used to require crazy stuff like 10w60 as well. Why? Because modern 5w40s are just as durable as the 10w60s.

We've seen from UOAs that the S65 is actually not that hard on oil, so M1 0w40 should be fine -- and it's LL-01, meaning BMW will be okay with this should anything catastrophic happen. If you really feel the need for a safety margin, then sure, use TWS. But there are other oils that would work nicely too...sadly none are LL-01 but they all meet or surpass ACEA A3/B4, which is very similar to LL-01:

Red Line 5w40 or 0w40
Motul 300V 5w40 or 0w40
Renewable Lube BioSyn 5w40 or 0w30
etc.

I will be running M1 0w40 at 7,500 mile intervals from now on. I have zero concerns about doing so. Feel free to find me on Bob Is The Oil Guy for additional debate -- we have been discussing these looser requirements at length. :-)

[Villanofun]

Thank you very much for the quick answers.

[Stainless 45]

Originally Posted by Ronnydashore

I am not an engineer but purely reading oil temps is hardly a way to guage if an oil is doing a good job under heavy track use. The temp sensor readings and flow to the oil cooler may be better due to lighter viscosity and less pumping losses and friction, however what about the temps at the bearings themselves where it matters or at other high wear parts that are not measured directly. There can easily and often be an increased in heat due to less protection on high moving or high pressure areas such as bearings with no indication or even lower oil temps.

I still think its a dangerous game to recommend to a broad audience to take it to the track with 0w40.

And to do this to save a few bucks or 60 bucks per oil change is ridiculous!

Daily driving however I think everyone agrees if you putz along and never seen 210 degrees on the guage than any oil virtually is fine so long as it holds pressure

It's not about cost, it's about prolonging bearing life, in which the 10w-60 seems to be a problem.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Stainless 45

It's not about cost, it's about prolonging bearing life, in which the 10w-60 seems to be a problem.

Correct. It does not shed heat as readily as other LL-01 oils. The film strength *might* be higher, but that's pointless if the bearings are getting so hot they expand and make contact.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Stainless 45

It's not about cost, it's about prolonging bearing life, in which the 10w-60 seems to be a problem.

Which is not quite correct even when compared against the existing hypothesis.

1. Is is hypothesized that tight bearing clearanced when combined with 10-60 may be causing premature bearing wear.
2. There is nothing per se wrong with the BMW approved 10-60 oil. It is a very high quality oil.
3. This is a HYPOTHESIS at this point, in fact there is also empirical observations to directly contradict this hypothesis.

[M3PO]

I just changed mine and put TWS back in. Anxiously awaiting the results. I was shooting for 7500 miles but ran it for 8300 (oops).

[Stainless 45]

Originally Posted by M3PO

I just changed mine and put TWS back in. Anxiously awaiting the results. I was shooting for 7500 miles but ran it for 8300 (oops).

What were you running? Please post the results when you get them.

[Villanofun]

Originally Posted by dparm

I partially agree -- an oil pressure gauge is definitely a requirement. If the 0w40 maintains the same oil pressure as the TWS (I suspect it does), then you can safely use it. The fact that BMW says any LL-01 is now acceptable leads me to believe that you will not have problems maintaining sufficient oil pressure even under track conditions, as others have mentioned earlier in this thread.

Has there been any empirical data on this?

[sensi09]

For the guys running 0w40, do you reach 210F with regular driving?

I'm a bit shy of 210 with 0w40 and was also a bit shy of 210 towards the end of my last run with TWS. In the past I would always reach 210 with regular highway driving.

Just wondering if it's the oil or if my indicator/sensor is a bit off.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Villanofun

Has there been any empirical data on this?

It has been logged, pressure is fine. Lowest I have is 35 at idle and 85 at 8600

[W///]

Originally Posted by sensi09

For the guys running 0w40, do you reach 210F with regular driving?

I'm a bit shy of 210 with 0w40 and was also a bit shy of 210 towards the end of my last run with TWS. In the past I would always reach 210 with regular highway driving.

Just wondering if it's the oil or if my indicator/sensor is a bit off.

Nah my car is the same way. It heats up 1/3 of the way quicker than 10W60. Afterwards it acts like the thicker oil, stopping right before 210. If I drive it long enough, it gets there eventually, but we are talking over 30 mins with this colder weather.

The reason I switched to 0W40 was because it heats up to that 1/3 mark quicker, and I figure that's when a lot of the damage due to oil being cold is done.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by Ronnydashore

I am not an engineer but purely reading oil temps is hardly a way to guage if an oil is doing a good job under heavy track use. The temp sensor readings and flow to the oil cooler may be better due to lighter viscosity and less pumping losses and friction, however what about the temps at the bearings themselves where it matters or at other high wear parts that are not measured directly. There can easily and often be an increased in heat due to less protection on high moving or high pressure areas such as bearings with no indication or even lower oil temps.

I still think its a dangerous game to recommend to a broad audience to take it to the track with 0w40.

And to do this to save a few bucks or 60 bucks per oil change is ridiculous!

Daily driving however I think everyone agrees if you putz along and never seen 210 degrees on the guage than any oil virtually is fine so long as it holds pressure

Some of us here are engineers (while maybe not fluid engineers), and work on engines & cars for a living with a lot of observation data and scientific data to the things we see and find.

The objective of switching to 0W-40 oil is not to save money. Recommending the usage of this oil is not dangerous by any means. First and foremost, it is LL-01 approved, meaning BMW cannot deny you any warranty claims. A quick look into BMW's dubious history with oil selection would prove this starting with the S62's and S54's and how many times they changed their recommendations.

Yes, there is data to show that Mobil1 0W-40 is sufficient, and in many cases superior to the TWS 10W-60. Its advantages lie in better lubrication during start up and cold engine operation. There is no doubt that TWS is an excellent oil (if not one of the best engine lubricants) for prolonged service life. However, the 0W-40 oil, in a track environment, proved to be more effective while keep engine oil temps lower than the TWS ever did (even when it was 28* out) and remaining consistent. Oil pressure remained well within factory tolerances without much variance from TWS. Yes, 0W-40 should have better cooling properties than TWS, and in practice it did.

My theory, yes this is a theory, that BMW used 10W-60 to adhere to their ridiculous 15,000 mile oil service intervals on their high performance engines. When it comes down to it, it's business. An oil service every 15,000 miles means only THREE free oil services in the warranty period, while service every 5000 miles would mandate TEN free services. Yes, 10 free services of 5W-30 or 0W-40 will cost more than 3 TWS services.

Having spoken to 2 BMW engineers in Germany, both of them agreed that 15000 is far too long and recommended the standard 5000 mile intervals.

Originally Posted by Villanofun

Has there been any empirical data on this?

Yes. Please see above post.

Originally Posted by sensi09

For the guys running 0w40, do you reach 210F with regular driving?

I'm a bit shy of 210 with 0w40 and was also a bit shy of 210 towards the end of my last run with TWS. In the past I would always reach 210 with regular highway driving.

Just wondering if it's the oil or if my indicator/sensor is a bit off.

Oil temps will vary, and with TWS it is normal to hit 210 and sometimes a little past it during prolonged city driving where air flow is not sufficient.

With 0W-40, in a 2.5 hour long traffic commute, the oil temps never went past 210*F. When air flow increased (by traffic dying off and highway speeds increasing), the oil temps within a matter of a few short minutes went back just shy of 210*F.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

It has been logged, pressure is fine. Lowest I have is 35 at idle and 85 at 8600

^^He's right.

BMW states that oil pressure should never drop below 1.0 (14.5 psi) bar at idle during normal operating temperature. BMW also states that engine oil pressure should never exceed 6.0 bar (87 psi) during normal engine temperature at high engine speeds and that pressure will vary between 4.0-6.0 bar during operation and normal engine temperature.

[swartzentruber]

Great thread. Thinking pretty seriously about switching to M1 0W-40 at my next change. My combination of a fairly short commute (6miles/15min) and northerly location (Chicago) means I'll take all the quicker warmup I can get. I previously used this oil religously in several VWs with the 1.8T engine and avoided all the sludge issues VW had from specifying only conventional oil (which I never believed was right, given how hot that turbo ran, particularly with the fairly small oil capacity). While VW wasn't offering free fills, I'm sure there reasoning was similar, in that they didn't want buyers to think Passats cost that much more to maintain than competing Toyotas and Hondas. Manufacturers definitely don't always get it right.

[Jive]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

Some of us here are engineers (while maybe not fluid engineers), and work on engines & cars for a living with a lot of observation data and scientific data to the things we see and find.

The objective of switching to 0W-40 oil is not to save money. Recommending the usage of this oil is not dangerous by any means. First and foremost, it is LL-01 approved, meaning BMW cannot deny you any warranty claims. A quick look into BMW's dubious history with oil selection would prove this starting with the S62's and S54's and how many times they changed their recommendations.

Yes, there is data to show that Mobil1 0W-40 is sufficient, and in many cases superior to the TWS 10W-60. Its advantages lie in better lubrication during start up and cold engine operation. There is no doubt that TWS is an excellent oil (if not one of the best engine lubricants) for prolonged service life. However, the 0W-40 oil, in a track environment, proved to be more effective while keep engine oil temps lower than the TWS ever did (even when it was 28* out) and remaining consistent. Oil pressure remained well within factory tolerances without much variance from TWS. Yes, 0W-40 should have better cooling properties than TWS, and in practice it did.

My theory, yes this is a theory, that BMW used 10W-60 to adhere to their ridiculous 15,000 mile oil service intervals on their high performance engines. When it comes down to it, it's business. An oil service every 15,000 miles means only THREE free oil services in the warranty period, while service every 5000 miles would mandate TEN free services. Yes, 10 free services of 5W-30 or 0W-40 will cost more than 3 TWS services.

Having spoken to 2 BMW engineers in Germany, both of them agreed that 15000 is far too long and recommended the standard 5000 mile intervals.



Yes. Please see above post.



Oil temps will vary, and with TWS it is normal to hit 210 and sometimes a little past it during prolonged city driving where air flow is not sufficient.

With 0W-40, in a 2.5 hour long traffic commute, the oil temps never went past 210*F. When air flow increased (by traffic dying off and highway speeds increasing), the oil temps within a matter of a few short minutes went back just shy of 210*F.



^^He's right.

BMW states that oil pressure should never drop below 1.0 (14.5 psi) bar at idle during normal operating temperature. BMW also states that engine oil pressure should never exceed 6.0 bar (87 psi) during normal engine temperature at high engine speeds and that pressure will vary between 4.0-6.0 bar during operation and normal engine temperature.

Great post. Thanks for your insight!

[W///]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Great thread. Thinking pretty seriously about switching to M1 0W-40 at my next change. My combination of a fairly short commute (6miles/15min) and northerly location (Chicago) means I'll take all the quicker warmup I can get. I previously used this oil religously in several VWs with the 1.8T engine and avoided all the sludge issues VW had from specifying only conventional oil (which I never believed was right, given how hot that turbo ran, particularly with the fairly small oil capacity). While VW wasn't offering free fills, I'm sure there reasoning was similar, in that they didn't want buyers to think Passats cost that much more to maintain than competing Toyotas and Hondas. Manufacturers definitely don't always get it right.

If you ask me, that's a no brainer. I'm in SC and our winters aren't anywhere as harsh as yours. My commute is a bit over 10 miles, takes about 20 mins. With 10W60 during the winter, it reached 210 right as I was pulling into my parking spot. Now with 0W40, I at least have a chance to go over 3k RPM before I get to work haha.

Also, my commute is almost all highway and country roads, so the car almost never sits in traffic, which is why it was never heating up to operating temp.

[dparm]

0wXX oils provide benefits regardless of whether or not you live in cold climates. That's the beauty of them.

Even at 20 C/68 F, M1 0w40 has a kinematic viscosity of roughly 180.8cSt versus TWS's ridiculous 435.8 -- that means it is 60% thinner when you go to start your car on a nice spring morning. What would you rather pump through your engine?

The rule is: as thin as possible, but as thick as necessary.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by Stainless 45

What were you running? Please post the results when you get them.

TWS all of it's life. I will definitely post the results. If the trend continues, this will be another bad one.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by W///

If you ask me, that's a no brainer. I'm in SC and our winters aren't anywhere as harsh as yours. My commute is a bit over 10 miles, takes about 20 mins. With 10W60 during the winter, it reached 210 right as I was pulling into my parking spot. Now with 0W40, I at least have a chance to go over 3k RPM before I get to work haha.

Also, my commute is almost all highway and country roads, so the car almost never sits in traffic, which is why it was never heating up to operating temp.

Our average summer temp In Perth Western Australia is around 32c and 18c in the winter. I commute 12 km each way, and half way during each journey the level shows up on the instrument cluster which means I can push high rpm merrily. Until then, it's nanna driving high gears and below 3k rpm and cruising.

What I noticed is, if I start and drive off immediately, the car is very rough. But if you leave it to warm up then that roughness is not there. I wonder why? This is regardless of winter or summer.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

Having spoken to 2 BMW engineers in Germany, both of them agreed that 15000 is far too long and recommended the standard 5000 mile intervals.

This is exactly what was told to me by BMW Australia. Change the oil very 5-6k km and use 10w-60 and you will not have any issue. Given our warm climate using 10w-60 is not a real issue. In fact, Penrite, a local oil company is offering higher viscosity oil because of the extremely hot conditions in Australia.

Also in my recent oil analysis it was reported, the viscosity was 20.49 @ 100 c which is lower than claimed by Castrol at the same temp. Interesting, because I had done only 4k km with that oil. Although it's marginal, it would be good to see how much it drops if you run BMW's recommended oil change interval.

[W///]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Our average summer temp In Perth Western Australia is around 32c and 18c in the winter. I commute 12 km each way, and half way during each journey the level shows up on the instrument cluster which means I can push high rpm merrily. Until then, it's nanna driving high gears and below 3k rpm and cruising.

What I noticed is, if I start and drive off immediately, the car is very rough. But if you leave it to warm up then that roughness is not there. I wonder why? This is regardless of winter or summer.

Part of the cold start sequence is still active. I know you probably turned off the higher rev with your tune, but I know mine bucked too. I've got the newest tune and that's now gone.

Here in SC, our summers are as hot as what you guys get and I can assure you 0W40 acted exactly the same as 10W60. I know you are dead set on using TWS, but just FYI.

And are you talking about the RPM limit or oil temp? Our winters, the weather is almost 0C, so makes even sense to run TWS as far as I'm concerned.

[fbm3cab]

Does anyone know what BMW uses in the S65 for the break in oil, Is it the TWS or is it thicker/thinner?